Navigating the social world sober

Welcome to Virgins Don't Take Pregnancy Tests, where real conversations meet hard truths, with Angie and Dave. 100% tomorrow, you were gonna die. Did you drink today? I always used to say I would, but as I got more sober, I said I wouldn't. Because I wouldn't want to, like, black out and not remember, like, my last 24 hours. But, well, here's the thing, I'm sure I would drink. I just know me. Like, that's the first thing I'm probably gonna do, but I wish that I wouldn't. Do you know what I mean? Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of Virgins Don't Take Pregnancy Tests, with Angie and Dave. And, um, today, actually, first, before we get going, look at my gift. We have a custom Virgins Don't Take Pregnancy Tests rug now. So now there's not just a bare spot of just floor back there. Thank you. It's awesome. So anyways, that's the gift. Today, we're going to talk about a topic that is really hard for a lot of people when they first quit drinking. And that's navigating the social world sober and kind of what goes along with that. When you first quit drinking, at least for me, and this will be good because Dave has a little bit different perspective here. But at least for me, when I started going to social events sober, it was so overwhelming to me. Like, I remember right when I quit drinking, one of my best friends, Carrie, got married. And going to her wedding, it caused me weeks of angst. And what do I do, and how do I not drink, and what do I tell people? What if someone asked me? And it's just so overwhelming. And so you kind of need to put some strategies in place to make sure that you protect yourself when you're at things like, um, I made a list of kind of the first. When you did those things, like, when you first went to that wedding, did you ever think to yourself, like, this is miserable? Like, why am I doing this to myself? So when I first stopped drinking, I did feel that way. But you still did it? You still went to things? Yeah, I still went to things, but I didn't go as long. So one of the things... You gave yourself an out. Yeah, I always had an out. And I think one of the important outs is, like, you always have your car. Like, I always have my car with me. So if, you know, maybe I was like, I'm going to go, I'm going to stay at the wedding for two hours, and then I'm going to leave. I always had the chance or the option to leave if something happened sooner. And the thing that would happen that would make me leave is if I wanted to drink. If I started thinking about how am I going to sneak that drink from the bar, that was my clue that I needed to get out of there, especially in early sobriety. That's why I don't do those things as early as I am. So you skip everything, really, right? I don't go to things if I don't have to. Okay. Because I know you just skipped your dad's 80th birthday. I skipped my dad's 80th birthday party. I know you don't go to holiday stuff as much. I've skipped every holiday. I haven't been to graduations. But I've gone to graduations. So I haven't gone out of town for graduations. And, and again, like, that's not because I don't care or I'm not proud of the achievements or whatever I am. But so, for example, like, as early as I am, if I were to go to a wedding or something like that, or even a family holiday or something like that, I wouldn't drink. I know I wouldn't drink. But in my head, I would be thinking about how could I, if I were in my drinking, how could I sneak that drink? How could I get away with drinking? Like, how would I do it? That's the mental part of it. I would plan it. I would plan it, like, bigger than shit. I would have a plan on how to do it. And the scary part is I would probably get away with it. So that's what kind of scares me and deters me from, we've talked about my bubble. And I'm very big on my bubble, a routine. We didn't mention it, a coping mechanism on the last episode, but I think a routine is paramount. It is important for a lot of people when they get sober. So I stick to my routine. And if I deviate, it scares me. I don't know what it looks like. But do you think that'll change for you? Don't you want to be able to go to, like, your dad's 80th birthday or a wedding? But see, the other thing is I really have no problem with just being by myself. I have no problem. I almost enjoy it. But it's probably a little bit of a defense mechanism, right? It certainly is. And it's kind of protecting myself from, I'm not so much worried about myself, really. But yes, I don't want to be miserable, but I don't want anyone else to be miserable. I don't want anyone to change the way they're acting or feel like they have to do something different just because I'm there. I would rather just not do it. And trust me, my feelings are not hurt if I'm not at something. If you don't invite me to something, my feelings aren't hurt. I hope other people's feelings aren't hurt if I don't attend. I hope people know that. But people do, like, that's the thing, like, people do take it personally if you don't go. And so I think it's really hard to just put on this, like, you've got to put on a selfish armor, right? And, like, for me, I agree it's not necessarily if I'm going to drink at the event because I feel like I probably won't drink. But for me, it is that feeling miserable, feeling out of place, uncomfortable. And, like, why in the hell would you put yourself in that position if you're feeling that way? Yeah. And I'm still in a, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like, this is working for me right now. I'm the happiest I've ever been. I'm the healthiest I've ever been. Everything is fucking great. I don't want to mess with it at all. And I don't even want to take that chance. So that's why I don't choose to do things, just for the, just being scared of what can come from it, just what thinking about it can do. So you do, and you did go on vacation. I think vacations and holidays together, going on a vacation sober when you're used to spending vacations, basically drinking from morning until night, because you're always, if you're at the beach, you can have beer at 9 a.m. Who cares? Yeah. So, and I've, I've thought about this and I think a lot of it has to do with, I don't know anybody at the beach and it was a huge help. Um, I mean, obviously the cat doesn't drink, but, and you, we were on vacation together. Yep. Obviously you didn't drink. That was a big problem. Makes it a lot easier. Yeah. Um, but if I were to go somewhere where every single person at that place usually knows that I am the one that's getting hammered and pounding bourbons. That makes you uncomfortable. They know I have beers in my truck if they need it. I, um, it's, it's, it's being around the people who know me in my past life, if you will. Um, it's just, it's to avoid the awkwardness almost like I didn't, and I, for some reason, I don't feel bad about putting myself in the position of saying no, I just don't. Um, and maybe I should, and maybe at some point I will, maybe that'll change. I mean, I would like to think I'm not ever going to be at a, at a party again, or I'm never going to be hanging out with my family again, or even your family or up in West Virginia or whatever. Um, but my, back to my health and happiness right now, it's, that's paramount. That, I have to do that. And that means I don't get to do, um, social things like that. So that was the part that scared me about getting sober so much is I thought I would never have fun again. And actually this is a good story in terms of just an alcoholic mind. When I was considering quitting drinking in my late thirties, all started to kind of happen around my like 40th birthday. And I remember very forcefully wanting to not quit drinking until after my 40th birthday. Cause I wanted to be able to drink at my 40th birthday party. And so like, that was like my whole thing was just to get past. I want to be able to drink at my 40th birthday party, which is ridiculous. Um, and in fact, I didn't end up drinking. I had a sober dinner birthday party, but I still, at that point, it sucked. It just, it wasn't, it was, it wasn't fun at that point. Because it's not what you had envisioned in your mind. It's not what I've been doing for 20 years. And it's not what's been programmed to like what a 40th birthday is supposed to look like. Right. Um, but that was my biggest concern. My 40th birthday. I just remember it was so huge and overwhelming. Like I couldn't possibly fathom not drinking on your 40th birthday, which is pretty fucked up. Yeah. Birthdays have never been really big for me anyway. Um, but I'd be lying if I said like my 50th, I didn't think like, that's a pretty big deal. One, because I literally never thought I would get to 50 back, back in my, my, my day. Um, that was just unfathomable for me. Um, but I, I, I thought that was a pretty big deal and to not drink on it was, I mean, I probably thought about it all day. Um, you know, what we'd be doing, you know, going to a big dinner or something like that. I didn't really, I don't think, I don't think I did anything. I, I don't think non-alcoholics understand like that mental part that you put yourself through getting ready to go somewhere. It's very hard. Like for example, a bar, happy hour, you would avoid those just inherently because they're alcohol. I mean, those are super alcohol focused, but sometimes you have to go for like a work event. And so like the, the couple of things that I always, when I'm going to a social event, I always have my own drink in my hand. I bring six pack in the car. I have two in my purse and it's a lot easier to walk around without drinking. If you have a bottle in your hand. And I think that's because you don't want to feel out of place. You don't want to make someone else feel comfortable, um, or uncomfortable. I should say, yeah. And you can almost guarantee it that if you're walking around with a drink, someone's not going to say to you, Hey, where's your drink? That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Um, and then, you know, if, if you really want to blend in or look like you're drinking or whatever, for whatever reason, um, you know, they, you know, tonic water with a lime. It's just like a gin and tonic or a vodka tonic. Throw a lime in your water or whatever. Okay. So I want to talk about if you order, let's say a diet Coke or iced tea versus a club soda with a lime in it so that it looks more like an alcoholic drink. Um, I used to always carry around an alcoholic looking drink. So you're going to say a lime. No, but I'm saying like, I would always get a cranberry and soda. I'd have them put a lime in it. And that way I kind of felt like I'm still drinking, you know, I still have my, yeah. But now it's insane because if you just go up to a bar and order a diet Coke, they could care freaking less. And they've served the thing you notice when you get drinking as how many other people don't drink like you used to drink. Right. Yeah. Everyone can just sit down and relax. Like if you get to a wedding and you just had a couple of drinks, that wouldn't be a problem. Um, but for us that, and I think that one of the things I just want to talk about, we talked about a little, but like one of the things is just understanding what triggers you and then learning how to respond to that. And so that goes for like your family stuff. It goes for work stuff. Um, I'll tell you one story where you talk about, it makes me more uncomfortable if people don't drink because I'm not drinking. We've talked about that a couple of times and that's very much a real thing. Um, the only worst thing than that is when they say, I'll make sure no one drinks. That's worse. So this is what happened to me when I went to Tel Aviv for training, uh, with the company and my CEO knew that I had gone to rehab and they knew that my husband had just passed. I was having a lot of issues with drinking. I went to this company event and actually it was San Francisco. I was thinking Tel Aviv, but San Francisco. Well, I had two big trainings. Um, but I told you, this is everyone got to dinner. It was about 50 people. Everyone was getting cocktails and stuff before the waiters came, you know, typical. Well, the CEO, my CEO comes in and he's talking to the waiters. And the next thing I know, the waiters are walking around taking people's alcoholic drinks. And he let everyone know it was going to be an alcohol-free dinner. He didn't say why, but like, I wanted to crawl under the table and die. I like you, it feels good to have someone do that for you. Cause that does feel like that's so nice and that's helpful. Yeah. But you feel like it's a spotlight. Yes. Like everyone's looking at you. And then I was like, well, the people that know I was in rehab know why we're not having alcohol at dinner and all that kind of stuff. Um, so I've had examples where it's been kind of both ways. And like you said, you don't want people to not drink cause you're not drinking. That's worse. It is way worse. And people think that that will help. And really it just makes it worse. Um, so much worse. So what would you do? This is what happened to me when I went to get, um, hibachi. Did I tell you this story? Yeah. And you know how they have the guys cooking and he's got all the things. And he, he like chucks food and you try to catch a little piece in your mouth. He also had this like little. I can tell you right now, I wouldn't catch it. I did always catch it. They had a little, they had the pee pee man that would squirt out water. I don't know what the pee pee man is. Okay. Am I totally out on hibachis? Yeah, yes. Okay. So they have a thing that squirts out liquid. Well, he went around and he, he looked like he was squeezing it and he did squeeze it in my mouth. And I thought it was water. It was sake. It was sake. And like, literally I was, I just remember my whole, like, what do I do? How do I get out of this? And I just ran to the bathroom and spit it out. That's what I did. And so like, what the fuck would you ever be prepared for something like that? I want to try to say what I would do in that situation without making you feel bad. Uh oh. I would like to think in that moment, I would be aware of my surroundings that I would know enough that he was only shooting liquid. No, like, I honestly really did not, it was not obvious. Or like, no one had announced it. I might have been the first one. Like, it was something. It was, I'm telling you, it was not obvious. I would drink it. You'd swallow? I would swallow it. Everyone else was like, you swallowed it, right? I would swallow it because one, it's not me. I didn't, I didn't reach for it. No, you are actually. PP Man, fuck me up. You're off the hook. It's PP Man. You're off the hook because the guy squirted it in my mouth. Yeah, no, I. Just so you know, I'm going to bring PP Man to the next episode. I'm going to bring it, just so you know. That's what I'm being frustrated. But yeah, so there's situations like that. First of all, I don't know that I can make it to the bathroom with a mouth full of sake and have the wherewithal to not swallow. Like, it's only a natural reaction. I just remember being so freaked out because I was new in sobriety. Like, it was, I just. No, good for you. And I was upset that that had happened. Right. Like, you didn't want alcohol to touch your, you know, like. Yeah, I don't want to be the guy that says, like, they should have that posted somewhere that that's a possibility, right? Like, hey, if you sit in the front row at seat row, you're going to get stressed, right? Yes, yes. Like, they should have that sort of thing for a hibachi. Yeah. And I think they do kind of have that saying about, like, well, if you stay at the barbershop long enough, you're going to get a haircut. Yeah. And that is referring. I can't believe we're spending so much time on this hibachi. Have you gone to the hibachi before you had quit drinking and seen that that was a thing? The pee-pee man was a thing. Yes, pee-pee man was there, but it was water before. Like, he would just put out the fire. It was water. It just tasted like water. No, I have never had anyone do sake before. It was the first time. Like, I think he thought it was funny and, like, everyone was going to have a good time. So, that brings up another good point with sake. I haven't had sushi since I stopped drinking in three years because I always equate sushi with drinking sake. So, that's another, yep, that's another. I've never had sushi and not drank sake. So, for me, I guess I'm just at the point where I don't, thankfully, connect stuff as much as I used to, like sushi and sake or golf and drinking, you know, just, like, the things that have you golfed. I've got, I have golfed. I've gotten sushi at Wegmans. Got a glass of wine at Wegmans to sit down and have sushi at Wegmans. Glass of wine. I've literally never had sushi without some sort of alcohol. And that's how I used to feel about going to Mexican. I'm the guy in Wegmans having a glass of wine and the sushi. I'm the guy in Mexican. I play for motor and just like the Mexican. Yeah, so. I have golfed, to answer your question, and have not drank during it. I have. How was it, though? Because when I do things like that, where, let's say it's an all-day boating trip, where there's a big cooler. Oh, I'm out. Can't do it. Yeah. So, you're still at the point where you just won't go. Yeah, but I have golfed, and I have taken my own, because I think it was so early in my joint that I didn't even know if the golf course served non-alcoholic beer. And for some reason, I didn't want to be the guy that asked, although I would have no problem doing that now. I have zero shame in that. So, I brought my own. Just brought and threw a couple in my bag. But, so, and I've only done that once, probably the last time that I played. But I played that two times before that, where it was tough. It was tough to get through a round of golf, because I was the guy who would have... Shots? No, I would have a beer or two before the first hole. Oh, yeah. I would go in, have a beer. Yeah. Take a beer with me, and have six on ice in the cart before we got to the first hole. Here's a funny story. Here's a funny golf story. So, I'm going to try to not use a name, but a friend that Kathy used to teach with, big golfer. Yeah. And he was a professional golfer. He was a teacher, a golf pro. And he was good friends of ours, and we used to play golf all the time. Well, he was, as a teaching pro, he got invited to a teaching pro's tournament out in Las Vegas. So, me and Kathy went, and him and his wife went, and I was his caddy for this tournament. And he tells this story. He tells it way better than I do. At the turn, like I said, at the turn is like where you go from like the ninth hole. Yeah. The clubhouse is there to go to the tenth hole. Yeah. So, he's on the tenth tee, and he's looking around going, where's my caddy? And he tells the story of, here I come. I stopped at the clubhouse, and I'm walking up to the tenth tee with a cooler of like 12 beers. And he's up there waiting to tee off, saying, where's my caddy? And that was your number one priority, the outdoor. Yeah. I didn't care what he was shooting. I didn't care about reading the next screen. It's kind of like fishing and golfing. Those kind of things are. Outdoor recreational activities that's associated with drinking. I will tell you the one thing that is sometimes hard for me still is concerts. I don't know why. I mean, yes, it's a heavily, you know, heavy drinking event. But like, so I went to Dave Matthews with all my college roommates, and he didn't play any of the songs that we knew. He played all his new shit, so that sucked. But I was the only one, obviously, not drinking. And it was, I mean, everyone there, you know how concerts are. Think about Jiffy Lube Live. I was in Virginia Beach, but kind of same thing. Concerts are always tricky for me. And I have to like, I have to really focus on like, not obsessing about alcohol the whole time. In my head. Yeah, I was never a big concert goer to begin with. I just don't like being around that many people. But I haven't been to a sporting event. I couldn't go to a baseball game or a hockey game or a race. What about the Super Bowl? Same thing? Well, you're at home. Well, no, but I would have. So it's funny you said, because I would have every year, whenever the Eagles would be in it, I would have my dad and brother would come down, get cheesesteaks and have some drinks or whatever. I think the last one that they were in was when I stopped drinking. And I think, if memory serves, I had asked them to not come or they didn't know if they were invited or something. But I kind of made it like I just wanted to be alone because we weren't going to be drinking. I didn't know what that was going to look like or what it was going to feel like. So I just didn't do it. And that goes back to, you know, why would you don't do something that you don't want to do? Why would you put yourself in that situation? Yeah. And like, I didn't like drunk idiots when I used to go to sporting events. So I can only imagine now if I were to try to go, it would be really hard to sit at a baseball game and not have a beer. It would be really hard. I will say that at something like a concert, like I start feeling a little bit better and safer when I see people that are really drunk because it, it makes me like, I feel bad for them that they're in that state and that they're not in control of their body. Right. And it makes me think how long, 20 years I did horse races, concerts, whatever, everything was drinking. So sometimes that's really a sense of empowerment and pride and the fact that you are in control. I don't know that I've ever felt bad for somebody that was out of control, drunk. I mean, I just, I was, I was never the stupid that I know of. So I think you were more like a maintenance drinker and I was like, I would just get faster. Yeah. I think I was in it for the marathon, not the sprint. Like I could, I could, I could drink a lot. I'm a sprint drinker. Yeah. What about, so let's talk about something that I think is hard. What about when people ask you why you're not drinking or has that literally not happened to you yet? Cause you've stayed. Um, why aren't I so, um, and for example, the reason I asked that is at the beginning and people would ask, you know, inevitably if you're at a event or a bar, whatever, someone's going to ask why you're not drinking. That's why you have to be proactive and carry the non-alcoholic. Carry it. But also I overthought it so much. I would like try to have this big thing. I was going to say I'm on medicine and like, you know, antibiotics, man. Yeah. And although I'm too old, I, uh, people with being, I was pregnant and whatever. I didn't care. Um, so yeah, but what do you just say to people? And so now, which is funny, I just say like, no, I don't drink. Yeah. So it's that thing they said like, no, thank you. That's a full sentence. I have started saying, no, I've said this to a couple of people that won't like drop it or whatever. I literally have started saying like, I'm a raging alcoholic. It will shut them the hell up. Trust me, you don't want me to have a drink. Yeah. Trust me. Do you want to go to jail tonight? Let's do it. Yeah, that's true. Okay. So anyways. So that, that reminds me of, and I think I've sent you, um, that, that clip from, uh, Landman when Billy Bob Thornton. Oh, when he's, I love that. So the guy goes, uh, you know, what do you have? And he goes, uh, I quit drinking. I'll just have a beer. Yeah. He goes, no, there's alcohol in that. Right. And he says, uh, so, but that's a Michelob Ultra. There's more alcohol in orange juice. He goes, yeah, I'm just saying it's still drinking. And he goes, I'll tell you what, I said, I'll have six of these sons of bitches. And then I'll come back in here tomorrow and I'll have six whiskeys. You tell me if it's the same. I love that one. There's another movie that has the same thing where they talk about being Buffalo sober. And basically it's cutting out, uh, brown liquor, wine, like certain things. And you're still drinking everything else. Like, um, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah. Like to your point, I've never, I don't think I've been in that situation where someone has said, um, why aren't you drinking or do you need to get me? I will say one time, um, once this has happened, um, say, but obviously I used to drink at work and my old job one time at my new job, someone said to me one time in the morning, I said, you drink. And he was walking by with a coffee cup. I don't know whatever he was doing. I was like, nah, man. And he's like, all right. We just kept going. I don't know what he was applying. I said, it was, nope, I don't. And that was early too. Early. I think that's the only time it ever really came up where I had to address it. So for me, it's been a big part of my experience just with work. So I travel a lot for work. I'm in sales. So I meet with like prospective clients, um, like today, which I didn't end up going, but I would have been in New York today. I had a lunch meeting and then a dinner event and work things are usually like, they're not hard for me. Cause like you said, I don't think that I'm going to drink. Although I will say that there is the time that I did slip and it was at a work event and slipped out, slipped and drank, no, but like, I remember thinking no one here, like knows that I don't drink. Like, that's how your head is, you know, all fucked up. So work things used to be really stressful for me. Now I don't go to happy hours. Like the kind of thing about happy hours is like, if you're not drinking, happy hour is fucking stupid. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, you don't do anything. I'll swing by to say hi. No, you don't. That if you're not going to drink, don't go. Exactly. So like work, happy hours used to stress me out and yeah, those can be triggers. And I think there's also still every now and then you might not have it, but like FOMO, like you're missing out on something by not drinking. Now, you know, that's not true, right? Yeah. I mean, I, I don't, I don't really get FOMO, but that's only because I don't care. I don't get FOMO for the drinking, but FOMO for the event. Like, Oh, that would have been fun. Like my college roommates will go out to a winery on Saturday. I'm not going to go do that. Like literally it's not fun to go to a winery all day. Yeah. Well, because you drink wine all day. But now it's just, there's certain things like happy hour wineries. They're just, it's, if you don't drink, there's literally no point. I mean, that's why they're there. They're not there for you to come in there and get it back. So there are those types of things that are still hard. Yeah. I mean, anything. I mean, I used to go to like, you know, beer festivals and you know, the first thing you do when you went like to a, I've never been to a county fair, but you would look for the beer tent. Whatever event was going on, it's the first thing you look for as a beer garden. So yeah, no, I find it better to just stay away. That's for me. Now I'm, I'm not even at three years. I, I hope, and I, I foresee at some point in the future of getting to your level can do it seemingly without a problem. Right. So I don't have, I don't even think about it anymore. Yeah. Like I could go to any work event and it would be fine. Like I wouldn't. There were times though, when you're not in a good space where I would start thinking, if you're just thinking about drinking or what are they drinking or what do they have? And like, if you're not in a good, like mental space, I think it can be more challenging. Like if I'm feeling strong and confident and I'm going in there and I'm, we talked about it before you feel a little arrogant because you're sober. Like I don't drink. It's just such a positive thing for you that you can kind of, you know, build yourself up. I remember, um, it was a really big step for me. Um, first time, uh, Kathy and Sammy like went out of town for a weekend. We'd have been home by myself for a weekend. Um, but I never did. I never slipped, never strayed, but it was, it was hard. Um, and now it has, maybe that's a bit, it has gotten easier, aggressively easier. The more they, they, you know, go out of town, it's not, not that big a deal anymore. But, um, that was a really big deal when, when that, when I first was home for a weekend by myself. And then I also, do you know, if it was hard for Kathy, like, did you ever ask her worrying that you were going to be drinking? Cause I, that would be the first thing I would think of. Like I'm going away. They're going to fucking drink. But you know what? So it's funny when we play these games, cause in my head, I don't think she would do this in my head. I'm thinking the first thing she's going to do when she comes home is fucking start looking around for shit and start looking at the bottom of the trash bags and in my old spots and all that stuff. So if anything, just to avoid that, I didn't take any chances. Yeah. Um, but no, I was never going to drink, but, um, but I do often think about, and thankfully I don't, I don't travel, uh, for work anymore, but if I was traveling or on a trip at, I used to sometimes go on business trips, like by myself, not with a bunch of people, usually at my old, old job. Um, like if I had to do that now, it was just me on a trip and no one knew me. I don't know, man. That'd be really hard because there's almost a hundred percent lock. No one would find out. I could a hundred percent get away with it if I was on a business trip by myself for three days without anyone. I mean, I think for us though, at this point, like get away with what? And then we go back to drinking again. Like it's such a shit storm. I mean, it would certainly scare me, but I can't, I mean, I can't honestly tell you what I would do in that situation. I would like to think I would, I would make the smart choice. It is hard when you're out with really the only accountability is you. Yeah. When there's your chance, anyone will know. Or you're with people that have no idea of your background. Um, you kind of think in your head, oh, that would be a good time. Cause they don't know. Cause you've pretty much, I've run out of people that I can drink around in Northern Virginia. Right. Like everyone knows it's not where I'm going to be sitting at a bar, having a drink and nobody's going to see me. Like, I don't worry about that. And so a lot of, a lot of your friends know that you are in recovery. That's the difference. No one really knew they do now. Um, but no one knew when I first, like when I went in, uh, to the house to treatment or whatever, I didn't tell anybody. I told my family. I didn't tell anybody. I mean, maybe my boss knew because I asked him for the phone number. Um, my old boss. So I didn't, and I would have people reach out to me because you have to give your phone away. You can't have your phone when you're in treatment. Right. So I didn't, are you talking to me? Like I haven't been to treatment. No, I know. I'm just saying. I've been three times. I know. So they take your phone. They take your phone at the beginning. I didn't talk to anyone at treatment. Maybe like once every night, I think I was, Kathy or Sammy was allowed to call me, but my point is like, no one knew. So I didn't, when I came out, I didn't really have a support system. So, and I think that's why I had to really get in a shell or a bubble. Um, can I just say something about that? Cause I don't often say good things about AA. Just because it's such a loaded topic for me, but I do think that AA was really helpful for me in the beginning because I did have kind of, you were saying at vacation, I was there. So it was a little easier and it was easier for me because you were there and you weren't drinking. Um, so yeah. So, and then I would have like friends, one in particular who, who I did a lot of good drinking with, with, would keep hitting me up. Hey, let's do lunch. When are we going to get to the other for lunch? And he would keep hitting me up and I'm like, ah, you know, we will, we will. Um, and I don't even think he knew the extent of what I was in, not through any fault of his own. I, that's how I wanted it. That's how I wanted to do it. And, um, no, finally, I mean, he kept asking, not badgering, not just normal. Like, Hey dude, let's, let's fucking go get lunch. You know, whatever. And finally, I just said, I said something along the lines of bro, I'm not ready. And he's like, I think the response is like, cool. Just let me know when you are. Haven't heard from him since. Which I could call that dude right now and ask him to do anything for me. If you would, I'd know that. Yeah. And I know he also follows BDTPT, the podcast with Angie and Dave. So he is well aware of. But when you went into rehab, a lot of people didn't know. When I went in, everyone knew. And like, I remember like a lady that I knew and she's like, well, you can't put that genie back in the damn bottle. And I was like, no, you cannot. When I was going, I know I was like, she's like, you can't put that back in. And that's true. It was out there. So I had a very public flogging in terms of the end. I don't know why I just thought of the pee-pee man. But I was in a different situation because everybody I knew knew. It was like hard to, at that point, keep it under wraps. I sent a text. As soon as I knew that I was leaving the next day, I sent a text to my mom, my dad, my brother and my sister. I said, literally, I think this is all I said. Lost my job. Going to treatment tomorrow. That's it. And I don't know, I don't even remember. I'm sure there were responses. I don't remember them. I know that I have, I have their support. And it's not just them. It's, it's, it's so hard to put into words the journey and how hard it is and the sacrifices. But yeah, they don't, I didn't, no one knew. No one knew around me except Kathy. I don't even think, you just said, you didn't know. I don't think your parents knew. I didn't, like, okay, the only thing I ever knew at some point. And I was always thinking, like, what, what do people know is what I kept thinking. I think just because the, like, I had the girls and it was, it just, everyone was involved. And do you know, do you know what I thought about a lot, especially when I was in treatment? Because I always get on Kathy. I get on all you guys about how often you guys talk to each other. It drives me nuts. But good on you. But I remember thinking, if there was ever a time I would want Angie talking to Kathy right now, this is it. Ah. Because I want Angie in her ear because she can explain it. I'm getting goosebumps. She can explain it a thousand times better than I could, especially in the state that I was in. Yeah. I could explain it now, but I just remember thinking if there was ever a time I wish Angie would be talking to her, it would be, like, right now about this stuff. Yeah. Because she doesn't know. And again, not her fault. No one knew. God, you just made me think of, so before I went to a formal rehab, I did a program at Fairfax Hospital, which was, it was outpatient, but there were a couple nights that I ended up staying there. I was inpatient. And I remember when I left the facility, nobody picked me up because I was, nobody was talking to me at that point. So I had no way home. So I called and got a taxi. I don't think Uber was going at the time. I think I did a taxi and I remember had no one talking to me, leaving this inpatient in a cab. And I had him drive to 7-Eleven and get me a 12 pack of beer before I went home in the cab. Shut your mouth right now, Angela McCloskey. What? This was like way back before I went to like real, like treatment. I did do that. That's a strong move right there. I mean, I remember it. Did they really pick you up from the hospital? Yeah. He picked me up at Fairfax Hospital. There's the behavioral health part. Yeah. You've been in that? No. But yeah, he picks me up right there on the side. Yeah. And I remember. Can you stop? I had him do the 7-Eleven. 7-Eleven right there? Yes. Right at 95? Yes. Yeah. So like. I've been there. I don't know. Just the crazy shit we do. But I did. I mean, I remember very vividly. That's. Wow. So that's how bad I was at that point. I was drinking right after my. And I know we joked about. We kind of drink around like drug alcohol tests and all that. Yeah. What we were in. But that was a time where. And. And just so you know, like when I was doing that, I remember like going like. You are so fucked up. Like this is really fucked up. I knew it. I don't know if I can top that, but this is a fucked up drinking story. Kev's so happy right now. So I talked about the, when I got pulled over, taken to jail for suspected DUI, blew an outrageous number, but I got off probation before judgment. So I never got a DUI. So let's get that out of the way. I mean, sort of. So I stayed the night. Yeah. In jail that night. Your father and Kathy came and got me out. I don't know when it was. It was probably six, seven in the morning. Six, seven. I cannot think of a worse person that I'd want to see right out of getting out of jail. I still see. I still see his face. I can picture it. Yep. As soon as I walked out. I was drinking beer at a Mexican restaurant that afternoon. Don Pablo's. Yep. Used to be right on the parkway. Got out of jail and not five hours later drinking beer at Don Pablo's. I mean, I hope that that just shows everyone like how strong addiction can be. That's not even a red flag. That's like 12 red flags shoved right up your ass. That's insane. And that's why I was saying, I remember at the time thinking like, wow, this has gotten pretty, pretty messed up if you're doing that. And I mean, if we're talking about like things we think about, like, so I keep saying like it's hard to put into words how hard it is. But so, so like there's a, I don't know how to explain this. There's a reason why like I don't, I would never like dance at functions, right? Because I'm the asshole that sits on the side and makes fun of that motherfucker. Because you were drinking. Right. But I make fun of people for doing dumb shit. So I know that there's people like me because I did it to you. There's people like me out there saying about me, why didn't he just stop? Why didn't he just stop? What a pussy. What a loser. He just, he couldn't stop drinking alcohol. That's ridiculous. Because I was thinking about you. I used to tell Kathy all the time. She just stopped. She's going to lose the girls. What is she doing? Like how tough is it to just not drink? And, but now I know, and I know people, well, here I go, right? Thoughts on facts. Yeah. Right. In my head. You think people are, yeah. I think people are saying the same thing about me. Like, why didn't he, why did he let it get to that? And I don't even know why. I think that's part of the point, right? I mean, I think that's like part of the whole like crazy part about alcoholism. At what point do you just like, where did I like pass go? Like at what point was it like, there's no coming back? And how did I not realize it? It wasn't drinking a beer five hours after getting released from jail. Oh, right, right. After blowing a 0.24. Right. After driving three, after stopping drinking for three hours, then blew a 0.24. Getting out of jail the next morning. It wasn't having a beer five hours later. That didn't do it for me. The day, yeah, yeah. I think I, yes, went out for Mexican after I got the DUI. Like I remember going, we got Mexican or something. And Chinese. We can't do hibachis or Mexican food. That's what it is. Um, everyone kind of laughs, but no, it's very hard to do certain things. And those are alcohol focused. Yeah. Try to get that cerveza and some sake. I mean, I actually think alcohol with a meal is a pretty hard thing when you first start. Absolutely. Because everything that you know in your body and muscle memory is three or four glasses of wine at dinner. The first thing you look forward to is the drink menu. Yeah. During a special one happy hour, what do they have on tap? Um, even now when, when we go places, like the first thing I look forward is do they have non-alcoholic beer? Even if I don't want to order one, I just look to see if they have it. So I think we're lucky now that there, there are so many zero percent alcohol, not just beer. They've got wine. Yeah. We talked about it last night. It's so, it's, it's so easy to, to, but it's not. No, I mean, it's so, they make it so easy to, to, to drink something that tastes like a beer. That's not a beer. Um, well people have, yeah, there's, I don't know. It sort of goes back to like when you order a drink at a wedding, are you just getting a diet Coke or do you want to get a frou-frou? And I remember I was getting the cocktail looking one cause I wanted to feel part of. Yeah. And it's not that you do stick out, you think you do. That's what I mean. You really don't. Here's the thing that people don't realize. Nobody cares that you're not drinking. Right. They could care less. And I think everyone cares. I think everyone's looking at me at nobody cares. Yeah, because it's such a big deal to you. Why wouldn't it be a big deal to them too? Really? They don't care. Yeah. I know, but it's, there's just stuff like that. Like, yeah, but it's things like that. Like, I mean, that's only one story, but I mean, there's so many things that, should have just like punched me in the face, made me want to stop drinking. I just didn't. I don't know why. I just didn't. Until, and this is the part that's hard work to get to, until you start feeling better, until you start seeing the benefits, until you have been with it long enough and proven to yourself that you can do it, and you start feeling really good about that, then that's why you keep doing it. Was it going through your head? Because I remember thinking like, I don't know if I can quit drinking. Like, like, because I had never tried it. Like, I never had fully said, it was always, I'm trying to quit. Saying like, I quit is... I never on my own sat down and said, I'm going to quit drinking. I tweaked what I thought I did. I mean, I might have for a week or so, tweaked like, I'm not going to drink bourbon, I'm just going to drink beer, I'm not going to drink it after seven o'clock. I tried to do that. I'm only going to drink on weekends. I don't even think that lasted a day. But I never sat down and said, I'm not drinking anymore, until I went into... Yeah. Well, I'd say most people don't end up on treatment on a high note, right? They're always coming in with... We've talked about this before, but a lot of people end up being introduced to sobriety through some sort of crisis, whether it's arrest or, you know, whatever other implosion, something you get caught at work drinking or whatever. Nobody goes to rehab on a high note, so... Yeah, and I'd like to see the numbers on people being forced into it, I guess against their will, like not by choice, forcing, like how often that sticks, because I believe unless you make a decision for yourself, no one makes you do it until you do it, that gives you the best chance. I mean, honestly, it is all about like being firm about in my head that I don't drink. And I've gotten to the point, luckily, where a lot of people know me as a non-drinker. I think that's part of the problem, too. When you first give up drinking, you're kind of like trying to shed that image that everyone has of you being the drinking fun or wasted one or whatever's going on. And then the other thing, like speaking of like spotlights, when you're like, I would always think like the times where I would be, you know, like out with a group of people like at dinner, you know, like it came time for a number of people, like everyone was looking at me. Oh, yeah. That's what I'm saying. Oh, yeah. To get a beer. Yeah. And you know what twice I did at dinner was I did order a glass of wine and I just let it sit there. Really? Because I was, yeah, I did that early on when I worked at two events. I didn't touch it. I didn't have a sip. But I got it and put it there because I was so, just didn't want, I was so uncomfortable with being sober. I was so uncomfortable. That reminds me of one of the counselors, one of the therapists when I was in treatment told me about a patient that he had had, was trying to quit drinking or whatever. And he did. He quit, successful story or whatever. His trick, the guy who was quitting, he had a clear bottle, filled with vodka, drew a line where the vodka was, kept it under the sink in the kitchen. And for some reason that worked for him. And that was his reminder every time he saw it and that line, liquor hadn't dropped below the line drawn. That was his motivation to never see the liquor drop below that line. That's interesting. Yeah. I thought that too. I was like, not me. How would that have been breakfast for me? I don't know. But that's the point. Like there's so many different ways. It goes back to like how much work it is to drink like an alcoholic. Yeah. Because it is a lot of different things that you. Yeah. I am on record and I will die on the hill of it's harder to stop drinking than it is to like be in, in your, in your addiction and trying to hide it and stuff. Like that's hard. That's work. It's so much harder to stop. Yeah. Especially after such a long time. And that's the thing. I don't know. I can't speak to anyone who's trying to quit after being a hard drinker for 10 years. Yeah. I can't even think about someone who's trying to quit being a hard drinker for 20 years. It's hard for everybody. Don't get me wrong. I think, um, I don't even know there might be a, once you get past a certain number of years, like it doesn't matter. That's when it becomes, like that's the threshold that it's that hard for everybody. Even though like, so I'm 55 and we talked about my 40th birthday. So I pretty much was trying to quit drinking since my late thirties. That's when I first, the whole idea of like, oh, maybe you don't drink. Like that just never occurred to me that someone would drink. Um, I didn't know anyone else that had quit drinking really. Um, and so it's very lonely. Um, when you first quit drinking, I think you're the only one doing it, but you're also the only one that like knows what's really going on in your head and how crazy it is. Because the part that people don't know is that mental obsession that alcoholics have. That's the part they have no understanding of, but that answers your question of why didn't she just quit? That's it. So ever since we started doing these, I would, every time I would see something on a TikTok or whatever, some sort of motivation. Is that a good quote? Yeah, I would, I would, I'll take a snap of it. So this one, most people only see the milestone. They never see the thousands of choices that built it, right? Thousands of choices. That's a great description. So it's very easy. Like people to say, um, so proud of you. So glad you did this. Blah, blah, blah. They just don't understand the work. They don't see me crying for an hour before I have to go to this wedding because I'm so scared and out of sorts of going to a alcohol event. Nobody really sees that part of it. Um, I do think now, like I do still have times where alcohol will float into my mind. Are you going to read yours now? Another one? Yeah, I mean, I can. I'm just scrolling through them. Uh, nobody gets sober, starts sleeping better, thinking clearer, feeling healthier and getting their peace back. Then says, damn, I really miss being hungover and miserable. Well, yeah, nobody, that's what they always tell you. You're never going to, you're never going to miss a night of not drinking, like feeling good the next day and, you know, being empowered and all that kind of stuff. So the people with the most years sober aren't the ones who stopped wanting it. They're the ones who wanted it every single day and chose differently every single time. Sobriety isn't the absence of temptation. It's the daily refusal to give into it. A daily refusal, I think, is really helpful for people to understand because that's a perfect description. Um, that's also why they say like, you just get a daily reprieve from drinking. So if you have 13 years or five years or three years, it's, everyone's in the same boat. You're just not drinking like for that day. And mentally I can do that. I cannot drink for a day and you just do it over and over. Yeah, that's like, I mean, I've said it before. That's the thing I always say, like, I don't know if I'm ever going to drink again. I just know it's not going to be today. But why wouldn't you drink again? Besides, you know, it's bad for you. It's so hard to quit again. I don't know if I would come back. Yeah, I would never want to reset. I mean, it goes, I don't know if we're talking quotes, it goes, just goes back to, I didn't come this far. I don't want to come this far. I wouldn't want to start over. I would never, ever. I would never want to go to rehab again. I would never want to be in that position. And I know like we talk about like, we wouldn't want to let other people down or whatever. And that's fine. That's the thing. But I just, I would be such a letdown to myself. I mean, at that point, it is a letdown to yourself. Then it does become you pussy. Yeah. What are you doing? Yeah. Like really, like you've done it for this long and now why? I can't even think of a reason. I can't even think of a reason that would push me to get into that headspace of I need to have drinking. Yeah. But for me, it's sort of like, I'm fine until I'm not. So it's like. So you never know. Yeah. Like I'm good until I'm not good. And then, so it's kind of a bit like that. I don't know when, if, if, if, and when that thing happens where it's something that's really going to want to make me drink. And I always think some sort of monumental thing. I mean, funerals is another good example. It's hard to be sober at. Yeah. A lot of people, it's a big drinking event. And so anywhere you go, like that's, I had that same level of being uncomfortable going to a funeral that I did to a wedding because of the amount of drinking. It would be a pretty dick move for me if not to go to someone's funeral. Well, yeah, you do. Yeah. I would go. You have to. I would go. Yeah. But I'm just saying that's another example of just a random event that I associate a lot of drinking. Okay. So good episode. We talked about a lot. We did talk about a lot. So, you know, living in a sober world, how to get through it, all that stuff. Some good stories were in there. So I think we're going to start ending each episode with, I'm going to ask you a question that you don't know about. You don't know what's coming. And you're going to have a surprise question. Surprise question. You're going to have a week to think about it. Okay. This is a softball. This isn't a big deal. So your question, think about it for next week. You can tell by my face how I feel about it. No, it's not. So having gone through this experience of podcasts and all the social media stuff and really getting out there and writing a book, will you write another book? And what was the title of that book? That's it.