Imperfect sobriety: slips and relapses

Hey guys, welcome to another episode of virgins. Don't take pregnancy tests, the podcast with Angie and Dave. Um, tonight we are going to do a couple things. One, I'm going to answer the question from last week. And then today's topic we're going to get into is slips and relapses. And what are those? How do they happen? Uh, what do you do to prevent them? And if you have a relapse, um, what do you do afterwards to kind of get back to a good place? Um, so starting off the first question from it. So your question from last week that you had a week to think about. And I did every day think about it. I'm sure you did. Was, uh, after going through all of this and the podcast and everything that, that we've done, uh, if you were to write a second book, um, or are you going to write a second book? And then if you did, what would the title be of that book? Okay. So I have thought about this a good bit. Um, I don't know if I'll write another book just cause it was a lot to get done. To be honest. I have thought though, if I were to, um, come up with a second book, I came up with a title and then I had some ideas of what I wanted it to be, but, um, it actually kind of aligns with today's topic, but my title for my next book would be imperfect sobriety. Okay. Um, and really that's just specific to my journey. It has been not a perfect path, but very intentional. Um, and so that's, that's what the name of my next book would be at this juncture. I think that would be a very good title because I don't think any, any path is perfect. Yeah. And that's true. That's true. That'd be interesting. So kind of tied into today, um, we're going to talk about what happens if you drink. Um, and I wanted to start with just explaining two terms. They call, um, when you go back to drinking, one is a slip and then one is a full blown relapse. Um, I think a lot of people don't understand the difference. And there are some people that don't believe in any of this. And if there's any sort of slip or relapse, you've broken your sobriety and you need to, you know, go back and reflog yourself to, you know, everything that, that you went through and feel bad about it again. But really the truth is a lot of what happens when you relapse or have a slip is dictated by how you respond to that. And it's really like what happens after that, that what happens after you have a slip or what happens after you relapse. Right. And when we had talked about what, um, the topic for tonight was going to be, I honestly wasn't really aware that there was a difference between a slip and a relapse. So a slip is a single brief and unplanned mistake while a relapse is a return to regular ongoing old habits. In my head, I always told people, if you're relapsed, if I'm relapsed, what that means is I'm drinking again. I just started drinking again. Um, kind of the, the Brad Pitt scenario. Yeah. See, I, I'm on the fence about it. Cause I think if like a slip would be what, if I went home and had a beer tonight, then that's it. And then what if you went, that's a slip. Yeah. It says, just let me finish on relapse and then you can, we'll talk about it. A relapse is a full return to active addiction and old behaviors. So basically that's what I mean. You're just drinking again. You're not, it's not like you, there's a, a relapse doesn't have an end, right? A relapse is end is another bottom. Okay. Do you know what I mean? So it can involve a conscious choice or a total breakdown of routines and coping methods. The durations that last for days, weeks, months, or longer. The aftermath, the person abandons their support system and continues using the substance regularly. So basically you just go back to you. So that's the, the, the differentiation is it's more of a long, a long term, a long term slip is a relapse, right? Yeah. Um. Or a continued slip, right? See, I would think. Where there's no one time event and then it stops. So I think of a relapse as, um, like you are, you're no longer, like you broke your sobriety, which to me means you start over. And to me also means then you have to pick a new date. I think that, that even if you call it a slip or a relapse, there is still that debate. And I think that most people would pick a, would start a new date regardless of, of which a slip you don't really have. Like, I don't want to say you don't have to, because the whole thing about sobriety is it's your personal journey. So what works for you, what works for me might not work for you. Um, and so a lot of people though, I think the general majority, a slip, you don't necessarily have to start recounting your days, but a relapse you would, and it doesn't matter because you control the rules. So there's, um, there's a lot of reasons for like what could cause a relapse, right? Like what, what, what, what would cause a slip? It could just be a social situation. Like, so the time that... Like you just put yourself in a bad spot and make a bad choice once? So the time that I slipped at work, I went to a work event. I don't remember where it was. I want to say Austin, Texas. Sounds like more of a slip. What did I say? More than a slip if you don't remember it. Oh, no, no, no. It was a, it, I think it was the first or second night I was there for like a three-day conference. And that's kind of a dangerous place for alcoholics. Cause like nobody knows my story, right? So like, I guess in like a sick way, that's like the one place I could still drink without people, you know, whatever. And I don't know if that's in your head when that happens, but I did end up, someone said, do you want to drink for the bar? And I say, yes. Why? I don't know. Like, I, I don't know if it was a social pressure. I don't know. Like when it was happening, I don't remember necessarily feeling one way or the other about it. Um, but I did know when I got home, I, one, I didn't go anywhere. I went to the happy hour, realized what I had done. And I went to my hotel room, which was a good step for me. So there was no further drinking that evening. It could have turned into, I drank the whole time I was there. It could have turned into, I go back to drinking, but I. Then you felt bad about it? I felt scared about it. I think anyone that's an alcoholic. Yeah. Like, I think the one thing we can all agree on is like, you never want to go back to your worst day. Like, like you don't want to start over. No, that's my, that's my biggest fear. And I, so one of the big reasons for, um, a relapse is overconfidence. Yeah. Right. You start thinking, I got this. It's been three years. It's been five years. It's been 10 years. I mean, I can go out and watch football on a Sunday. I can go have a couple of beers or whatever. And I kind of think I could think I could. I don't know that I could. And that's the scary part. That's what I want to stay away from. So that would be, so I guess, I guess my biggest, um, coping mechanism to not relapse is fear. It is. I'm scared of what, what could happen if I were to have, uh, even just a couple of beers, uh, because the overconfidence part is, of course I can do it. I think I can do it. I, maybe, but then I, I don't know for sure. Yeah. And I, I don't know. Like if in that moment when someone asked you that, did you pause? Was there like, I honestly don't remember. Like, I just don't remember, I don't want to say it wasn't a big deal, but like, I don't remember it being as big of a deal as it is. Do you know what I mean? But do you remember going into it thinking there's a chance? No, I didn't. No, no, no. I didn't. I went into that cocktail. It was like a happy hour networking thing with no, um, preconceived notion of like, oh, I can drink here because no one knows me. That was not what was in my head. I think it was a little bit of, I don't think it was FOMO because I don't, I'm not like missing out on happy hours and networking things. I feel like for me, it was just sort of like a, a social pressure that for whatever reason, I wasn't, I don't know why I said, I really don't. Because like I said, like a good example, let's talk about just, I want to share the stats on relapse. So you guys can know it's a really big part of alcoholism and alcohol use disorder, but it does not have to be part of your story. Like Dave, like ideally, so everyone knows you don't have a slip or you don't relapse at all. Period. That's the goal. But in this disease of, they call it alcohol use disorder or alcoholism, there is a very high percentage. I mean, I know that it's a high number. I don't know what it is. It's 40 to 60% is the overall relapse rate for alcoholics. Okay. Which is really, really high. Let's just take 50. That's the middle of 40 and 60. So one out of two are going to relapse. That's a really high number. 70% of individuals struggling with alcoholism will relapse at some point in their recovery journey. That's high. 70. And then two thirds of those in treatment for alcohol use disorder will relapse within the first six months. I was just going to say it's usually generally pretty early. Yeah, they have, for like timing of relapse, the biggest one is within that first 90 days. It's a 65 to 70% relapse rate. And then year one drops to 50. Year two, 21%. Year three to five, you're down to under 10% relapse. So as you get further along, you know, things. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Makes perfect sense. Talking about some of the risk factors, because you were saying, you know, like what's the trigger? One of my big triggers is stress at work. Work stress is one big bucket for me. And I've had this job for the last, you know, six years that's been a little bit stressful. In the last year, it's kind of been slowly coming to a screeching halt. But I ended up getting laid off last Monday. And what I want to share with you guys is the first thing I would have done in any scenario when getting laid off, from a job would immediately drink. That's a great reason to drink. And I would be drinking right now if I were not sober, right? And so it's a really big deal. And I want to share that it's possible. Until talking about it with Dave tonight, drinking alcohol did not cross my mind as a solution to losing my job. I can definitely tell you guys that if I started drinking now while I was trying to look for a job. One, I probably wouldn't get one anytime soon. And then, uh, two, um, I don't know if I would really, um, I just lost my train of thought there. So I'm going to skip to something else. Okay. Um, so outside of work triggers, there's also, um, relationship triggers. And there's social triggers. What do you think are, like, the most dangerous ones for you? Obviously, I just talked about social ones. And I think, I think that's there. It's a big one. I think there's a few, but I think a big part of it is once you get sober or once you stop drinking and alcohol is no longer a part of your life, like, you still have a life. Yeah. Right? You still have family. You still have a job. You still have finances. You still have, you need to be there in your relationship. Um, you're going to have everything that existed before, but you don't have alcohol. Right. And so you need to balance those things while still maintaining, um, your sobriety. And I think any one of those things could be a trigger at any given time. Um, but then it just comes back to realizing what a trigger is and what you can do, um, to prevent it. Like, there's, um, it's called HALT. Yeah. Right? Um, hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Right? Is it, like, those are the four main, any one of those four, hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Yeah. Right? And so I know you were saying, like, um, I think it was the last episode or maybe two episodes ago. Like, I had never heard of the coping skill of, uh, eating a quick meal and, and drinking, drinking a glass of water. Yeah. Right? Um, so, I mean, obviously if you're hungry, eat something real quick, have a glass of water. Um, if you're angry, you know, work out, go for a walk, meditate, do something lonely, call someone, call anyone. Um, it doesn't matter. Just get on the phone talking to somebody and tired. I mean, this is my favorite. Just take a nap. I got a sick nap this afternoon. It was awesome. It, HALT is a really actually good thing to understand. And I think it's whether you're an alcoholic or not, even just like with my kids. Yeah. That could just be with daily stressors. Um, but that's a really good tool is, yeah, definitely HALT. Um, I think the other thing too, is just knowing what situations are not good for you, right? Depending on where you are in your sobriety, you don't attend things or, you know, you don't go for as long. All of those are preventative, you know, strategies for me. If I'm, you know, going to a drinking event, carrying my own water around or my own drink around, never being asked if I want to drink because I have a drink in my hand. Those are all things that help me not slip, not have a relapse. Um, I think when you have either a slip or a relapse, whatever you want to call it. And by the way, I don't think it matters what you call it. I think it matters how it impacts your sobriety and how you respond to it. Like if you're going to, for some reason you had a slip and you had, let's say a couple glasses of wine last night. Um, there's a difference between like, you're starting to drink again and you're just going to get up and do it. Start all over drinking again versus I'm waking up. I'm not drinking. I realized a really big mistake. I caught myself and I want to go back to not drinking. To me, that's the mental difference. Yeah. So I think if you were to slip or, or even, even relapse, well, let's start with slip. I mean, if you slip, I mean, the one thing immediately you have to realize it and stop and you have to call someone. Oh yeah. You have to talk to someone about it. Yes, yes. You have to. And you have to, in that moment. You have to out yourself. And you have to figure out why. Yeah. Because it wasn't for no reason. Something happened either that week or whatever day of the week it was, whatever happened that day, whoever you talked to that day, something made it happen. What if it's just you're an alcoholic and that's what made it happen? Sure. Then, then, then that's good. But I'm just saying. It's not good that you're an alcoholic, but it's good that that can, if you realize that that's the reason, then that's good. And then at least, you know, that you at least at one time said to yourself, I need to stop. I'm an alcoholic. I need to stop drinking. Maybe it didn't work this time, but now I know I did it once. I can do it again. And then you just, you realize that it's a learning process. You didn't fail. You're just learning as you go. And like, it's not a perfect, I don't know, whatever you said the title. A perfect sobriety. Yeah, it's, it's imperfect. It's not going to be perfect. Um, but it goes back to, to that self-realization of, um, yeah, that's not the way I wanted it to go, but it did. Let's figure out why and let's stop it from happening again. So talking more about relapsing, it, it came out today, um, the cause of death for Hayden Panettiere, right? And no surprise, it was overdose of ketamine and all this other stuff. Um, but so there was a, um, in an interview with Dr. Drew, Dr. Drew Pinsky does all their rehabs and all that stuff. Um, and he had said that, uh, obviously it wasn't, um, prescription medication. Like it was altered in some way or whatever. And she was hanging out with people who were into that stuff and were probably big time enablers. Right. And, and, and that's what, what got her in trouble. So it just got me thinking like when we came out of rehab, or at least when I did, I, I went, I had a really strong support system, even though it was just one person, but it was in my home structured, one support person and everything, everything was good. But a lot of people don't have that. They don't have the opportunity to be around people who will support them. They, they might go back home and there might be people who are still drinking. The anti of support that are, that are, that are really deep into it and they don't want to see you succeed or be successful or quote unquote better than them. Um, so I think that is a, um, a huge, a huge, uh, trigger for, for relapsing. But, um. I think I, I was lucky I didn't go back into like a drinking or drug situation, active drinking or drug situation. But although I had support like from my family and friends, meaning like they supported me getting sober, I also was alone though. So I was, I had no other adults around. And so I had to just be accountable to myself. Like there was, I could have done what I could have drank when I got home. You know, I could have done whatever I wanted. I had my kids that were so young, but I didn't have an adult support at home. So for me, it was a little scary to be at home right after treatment. Um, and I know it's scary for anyone. And so I know it's scary for you too, but just cause you don't know what happens when you quit drinking is you quit drinking and it's this huge, big deal. It's the biggest thing that you've ever done in your life. And you want everyone to know about it. And you're so happy and proud and all that. And life just keeps going on. The same stuff goes on work, relationships, friends, fighting, bills, whatever it is, all that stuff is there. And then when you want to kind of cope up, you know, a coping mechanism, you don't have it anymore. So what do you do? And I think like you mentioned working out and walking and talking to people and all that stuff, but they really advise you to be careful of people, places, and things. I learned that in AA, basically that old saying of, if you hang out at the barbershop long enough, you're going to get a haircut. And so people that you used to drink with places where you used to drink, obviously an old bar, but maybe it was, you went to a college football game every Saturday and you got plowed, whatever it is that, that event is tying it to alcohol. And then things, you might have like your fancy wine glasses or some other part of your ritual. All of those things, basically, I want to say just need to be removed, right? Get as far away from them as you can, whether that means not hanging out with those people. And I think we've both found out that is kind of the answer at the beginning. You just don't. Absolutely. It's not worth it to you to try. Like it's, there's no, there's nothing worth risking it at that point. No. And it doesn't even matter how bad it makes you feel or how shitty of a person it makes you feel like, but like you're doing it for yourself. You can't worry about anyone else. You have to avoid the people, places, and things, or you're just not giving yourself a shot. And I think it also means you just have to be comfortable for a while, like missing things, like not like that. It has to be all depressive and you like, don't do anything and all that, but a really good safe strategy is staying home. Right. But you also want to live life. And that means eventually I'd like to be able to go to a anniversary or retirement party at a bar. I'd like to be able to go and hang out there and not feel uncomfortable. Yeah. There's just some things like, I got a text from a buddy of mine from high school and it was like, Hey, you know, listen, I, I don't really look at podcasts. That's not my thing, but I've checked yours out. I did a lot of drinking with this kid. Yeah. And he was like, you know, I'm going to check yours out. I'm not a podcast guy, but I don't really think I'm your target artist. I'm in a darts league. I'm in a horseshoe league. I'm the social president of this golf club. And I'm like, yeah, like you're not the guy. You're not the guy. You do what you got to do, man. I'm not here to judge, but you obviously can't be doing those things if you're really serious about not drinking. But I just thought that was funny. I mean, and I think you have to just kind of weigh to like the event versus your personal, I don't want to say safety and security, but basically that. The trouble, like I always think about why do people relapse right after treatment? And the problem that I see with treatment, it's so effective because you're in a bubble and they keep you in a bubble where you don't have relationships. You don't have a choice. You don't have a choice. I don't have work. You have no choice. And it's a very conducive environment to being abstinent. It's not like you're going to find alcohol there, right? There's going to be no alcohol anywhere. You're not going to have a place to get alcohol. But what was my point with that? But I mean, listen, besides being in treatment and like kind of feeling like you're I was stuck between these walls and in this environment, it was a pretty cushy gig. I mean, we I don't know about your we had a chef in the house and we could choose what we wanted for when he went shopping. And it was it was it was run very, very well. And it was not yoga. You're doing it. It wasn't a hardship by any means. No, it is a little bit like it's a mini vacation, except it is sober. Yeah. So it's not the really only hardship is you're not, you know, with your family or whatever. Yeah. But I mean, I don't want to say it was a cushy gig, but it wasn't bad as people like make it out to be. I don't think the I don't think rehab is like horrible just because it's rehab. I mean, I just think people think when you hear the word rehab, you think of like white coats running around. Yeah. You're just like locked in your room. And you're like standing up there getting a pill put in your mouth or something. Yeah. You're in line for your pills. But it's and there were outings and stuff like I don't know. I wasn't big on the outings. I didn't like them. We called it the druggie buggy. We had a van that they would drive us around in and we could go to Starbucks. We had a big van. We never went to Starbucks. We went. Oh, but we weren't allowed to get caffeine. So it was an honesty policy. I got triple caffeine every time. So the one thing that I thought was weird. One of the trips that we went to, it was to I'm going to forget the name of it. It was the bowling place in Manassas Mall. But it's not like bowling. It's like a big restaurant, huge bar. So it was kind of like a, what are those places called? I don't know. Or the adult game places? Yeah. Dave and Busters. Dave and Busters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was more like bowling. And then we went to like, we went out to lunch one time. We went to a thrift store, which was kind of cool. I just bought a bunch of books or whatever. I don't wear other people's clothes. And then, but afterwards we went to like Matchbox. That's kind of like a bar-y restaurant. Yeah, yeah. And like that was kind of tough. And I was wondering why they would do that. And someone asked, I don't think it was me, but someone asked, you know, why would you bring us to a place like this? And the answer was, do you think you're not going to be going to places like this when you leave here? Like you need to be. Get a little bit outside. Get acclimated to it that this is things you're going to be around. That is why I think treatment, it's that bubble and it's so quick once it's gone. It's very, it kind of reminded me a little bit of Marine Corps boot camp. Like there's a reason for everything, right? Like there's nothing that they do or make you do or have you sit through or go through that there's not a reason for it. And I can say that now looking back on it, but it was, and I didn't like the outings. And the one I really didn't like was one of the last ones we went to was, because I was there in the fall, was, you know, Cox Farms does their whole thing. You had to go with your... We had to go in our van to this place and we had rented a fucking... Oh my God. Oh, I hated that. Not a tent, but a fucking whatever thing. And it was like the other house, because it was this program had like three other houses. Oh, it's a big thing. They were all like rented, the billions or whatever. And we're just sitting there. No one knows what to say to each other. Like our house is here, right? Because we all kind of know each other. It got... And then you're just sitting there like watching like families and like you're missing your wife and kid. And it was just... I didn't think that was a very good trip to be on. Yeah, that doesn't sound like really... And we made that known and they had said, because I had kept in touch with one of the counselors afterwards. And she was like, yeah, we're never... Thank you for your feedback. I said, yeah, I said, it might have been a good idea, but it's not well done. I don't know if we actually had any like outing outings that were like... Oh, actually, I'm sorry. We did go to Clearwater Beach one day, because I went in my three... Is that with hurricanes over there? Yeah. Hurricanes, right? Yeah. Nice group of sandwich over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we did get to go to the beach for a day. I think, though, that whole thing is so awkward. It's very awkward. I did. I was scared I was going to run into people. I feel like everyone's looking at you. Everyone's like, why are these adults hanging out together? Something's wrong with them. Yeah, yeah. Like, I wanted to be like... It's so obvious. I was thinking of like, we were going to look like the kindergartners chained to each other walking down the street. Yes. Right. Holding hands. Right. You have a buddy when you walk. Everyone has their safety vests on. Yeah. Yeah, that's what it felt like. Well, they kind of need to do that a little. A little bit. Right. For some, yeah. But that was the part, I would say, though. But, you know, you get through it and you go through it. But it, like, I don't... I had a very negative thought about it. And I think that's why I put it off for so long. I had a very negative image in my mind of treatment. I just thought it would be miserable. I mean, it's not fun, right? It was really, honestly, it was one of the nicest houses I've ever stayed in. It was a pretty sick house. So I was never in, like... And I was in the master... I had the master suite to myself. Oh, no. It was sick. I was never... I always shared a room with someone. I had... I was sharing that room with someone for a while and it didn't go very well. And I told the people there, I said, you can handle this or I can handle it. It's up to you. Uh-huh. And they handle it. Got hit. So do you ever talk to those people again? Because I don't. So one guy, I kind of stay in touch with texts every now and then. And he's actually right down in Fredericksburg. Actually, every now and then, I'm connected with folks on Facebook. So every now and then, one, like a random person will make a comment and I'm like, oh, God, that's like too close for comfort. So that one guy and I text every now and then, not often, but every now and then, just to check in and then, um, so it's funny. Uh, one of my counselors when I was in treatment said that he would, he lived in Woodbridge and, uh, he said, you know, if we're, if I live in Woodbridge, so if we're out or I see you, he's like, I can't, I can't come up to you and say like, how are you, talk to you, whatever. You can come up to me, whatever. And I did end up running into him. Oh, you did? I did. And, um, good conversation. Great dude. I ran into him another time, like get my hair cut at the barbershop. And then, um, I stayed in touch with one counselor. Um, and then she, I don't, she doesn't work there anymore. Her email address doesn't work. And that's, I don't really, I'd like to get in touch with her again and let her know where I am. Yeah. Yeah. She actually was the one that really like got everything to get her together for me for when I left, got me hooked up with online programs and all my paperwork squared away. And this, I will say they do a very good job. She genuinely, genuinely seemed like she cared about the afterlife. Like what, what it was. And she seemed genuinely proud of where I was whenever she and I would, would email back and forth a little bit. But, um, yeah, what kind of lost us with her. I just like, I feel like back to that little bubble thing. It's almost like you're in your own little town. Like it's just a little weird. It is. A little weird community. I don't know how to explain it to people, but it's like, it's definitely got some trauma bonding going on. Right. Like you become like, Oh yeah. You're sharing. Yeah. Yeah. You're sharing some stories. You think you're like as close as, you know, these are like, Oh my God, these people are my, what do you call them? Like, and it seems like at the time, like when, when you're in it, you're like, Oh my God, we're going to keep in touch forever. And that doesn't happen. But you know why it doesn't happen too? Cause we talked about this before because so many people relapse and that's the problem with treatment is the people that they introduce you to are the very people like say 60 to 70% relapse. Those are the people you don't want to, you can't hang around. So then it's kind of like, it's a very, um, isolating, right? Yeah. It's in, and you stay home a lot, right? So it is very isolating for you socially, but you don't seem to miss it. Yeah. I'm perfectly fine. I would like to see, uh, cause I just have the, the, in my head, I mentally, I can see the whole cast of characters and like, what if we all had like a, a reunion back at that house? Like how many, like where would everyone be at? That would be a good Netflix show. Yeah. A treatment one. Jesus. Uh, relapsing. It's, uh, it's difficult and it's a shame. I don't, I don't know many people beside you that have relapsed. Um, I mean, but you know what I was thinking, Dave, like, yes, I relapsed at some point, but like if you were to take, let's just say however many days, 15 years is. So anyways, if you look at it in the, you're not going to do 365 by 50. Hold on. I just couldn't find it. Cause I'm blind. Hold on. Three 65 times. Shush. 5,400 days. So what I was trying to say is I wrote down on this paper, like how many days I was sober and I didn't really know like how long my relapses were. Like, I don't remember actually at all, like how long I drank after that November. I was always like trying to stop, but like, so I just don't know the exact time period. So I said, what if I took like three months per relapse and it still came out to being sober, like 96% of those days. And I think that's what you should hang on to, right? Because most of us, that is a win. You couldn't go one day without drinking to be able to go and have that type of sobriety. So my point for anyone that's trying to do this is one, you don't have to have relapse as part of your story, period. That's the best case scenario, right? But if it is, it doesn't mean you're a complete failure and everything that you've done is just in the trash. Like, I do not believe that whatsoever. I agree with you. Some people may want to start their date over personal decision, whatever you want to do, do it. But like, again, I think it's just like super personal in terms of like, it's not going to work. The same thing isn't going to work for the next person. And I think that's the bottom line. Some people are going to have relapses. Some people aren't. I think the end goal is the most important. Well, the end goal of abstinence, right? Like that's everyone's end goal, or it should be, I would think, if you're trying to quit drinking. I don't know the number. I know it's very low, but I mean, there is documentation of people who were full-blown like addictive behavior, alcoholics who can get back to it at some point later in a healthy fashion. That's a thing. That's a possibility. I don't know what that number is. You mean a percentage go back to moderate drinking? Yeah, go back to not being, like being able to social drink. I've never seen any percentages wrong, or statistics wrong. Well, I've been told that, that it is possible. It's not likely. I would never want to try it, but I wouldn't, that's not obviously the norm. No one should expect that. You should expect that if you get into this and are serious about it, that it's going to be forever. Yeah. There should be no other, no one should say, like, I'm going to quit drinking for six months. No, but, like, I do believe in the kind of, like, mind trick of, like, I'm going to not drink for one year and see how I feel. And if I want to drink at the end of that year, I can, okay? There's something about a mind, I know you don't agree with me by your face, but there is something a little bit about, that's why they have you focus on 24 hours, one day at a time is so big. And literally, it is because of, you know, you can stay sober, you can do anything for 24 hours if you had to, right? I could. You could do anything for 24 hours. And so it does help some people get past that forever loop because right out of the gate, forever is a really scary proposition. And I don't think it's necessarily helpful to try and quit drinking and every day in your head, I'm never going to drink again the rest of my life. Like, I just don't think you need to go there. That might be what... But if I, if I said, I'm going to not drink for a year, I feel like every day I'd be counting down that year. I mean, I would just be like, okay, I'm on day 300. No, but what if at the end of that year, I think what a lot of people find is they want to keep going. But then I would do the, the overconfidence thing. Then it would be like at six months. Well, I made it six months. Well, I start drinking now. And then why don't I just do another year? So as you can see, there's like all these mental mind games that you can do with yourself. A hundred percent. And... I think it just depends on your personality. It does. And it depends how... How you're mentally... Yeah. How you think. Um, yeah. And like I said, I, I was all in. It was never a choice for me. I didn't... It was either all in or who knows what's going on. I mean, I'm not saying I didn't know it was all in. I'm just saying like sometimes just focusing on like, I'm going to do this for the next 24 hours is a helpful strategy. I always, I mean, I think anyone, which is why we were kind of talking about the Brad Pitt thing that one episode. Like, I don't believe that you can go back to normal drinking after you have had alcohol use disorder, alcoholic, gone through treatment. Like, I don't, I don't believe that one day I'm going to wake up and it's just going to be like, I can drink again normal. And I will say though, that's the number one question people probably ask me. Do I think I'll ever drink again? Can you drink normal? Like, even Beth asked me that one time, I think, like, in your head, you know, do you ever... Do you drink normal? Can you drink normal? Can you drink normal now? But no, but more the lines of like, do you think the situation with Mike, for example, in Tampa was such a catalyst? And I, I mean, I don't, I think it was a catalyst, but I think my, my alcohol use was what it was regardless of a situation that happened to me. It may have sped it up, you know, a bit, but I just don't believe, like, I don't in my head. I mean, I joke about, gosh, when I'm 80, maybe I live on the lake with my friends and we drink wine. But like, if someone told me I had six months to live, just kind of like with my work thing that happened last week, I don't, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think drinking is going to be the thing that pops into my head. Like, I wouldn't want to be drunk for the last six months of my life and disappoint everyone and not remember everything. And like, well, you answered that question a couple of weeks ago that you would like to think you wouldn't if you knew you were going to die the next day, you would like to think you wouldn't, but you probably would. So, you know, it's funny. I was thinking about this question earlier. I think it depends on what day you ask me, how I feel. I really do. I think sometimes I feel differently about it or, or think, you know, maybe, but I know really in my heart. That's a tough situation to put yourself in. No. That's a tough, tough, I could do. Yeah. I don't, I don't think I'll drink again, but you know. So I would say the same thing. I don't think I'll drink again. But I think that's the, like, I didn't think I was going to drink that time I did. Do you know what I mean? Like, how do you get to this from like, I'm never going to drink again. I'm confident. I'm not drinking. I feel good about it too. Oh shit. I'm at a place where I'm thinking about having a drink. Like, that's a scary situation. Yeah. It's scary to think about what could put you in that frame of mind. The only thing I think at this juncture in my life, I don't even want to say this. It's so depressing, but like a death in the family, like something like that is the only thing that I could see big enough emotionally that it would be a, I don't know if it would be a problem. I'm just saying like that kind of, that kind of event makes me nervous. Um, no, I agree. You know, um, because I don't know what it, you know, I don't know what I would feel or what I do, but I hope I wouldn't drink. Um, and I am being like serious. Like if I had six months to live, like I joke, like, yeah, I'm going to drink. I just want to, you know, smoke cigarettes, drink, sit at the beach, whatever. I really don't think like I would want my friends and family, like for that to be the last six months of their time with me. You know what I mean? I don't know what you mean. I don't know if that would be me. What? I don't think I would. I don't think I would. You think you would drink? I think I would. If it was a hundred percent lock that I was going to be dead in six months, I would. I mean, it's honesty. I don't know. I mean, hopefully that, no one's, hopefully that doesn't turn into a reality that I only have six months to live, but. So speaking of questions, let's wrap this up and we're going to ask your question for next week. Okay. You're going to have a week to think about it. Alrighty. What is the hardest or most important truth about yourself that sobriety has forced you to acknowledge? You have a week and I'll let, when you forget on Thursday, I'll remind you again. No, I'm going to think about it. That's a really good question. So. It's the hardest truth about yourself that sobriety has forced you to acknowledge. All right. Answered next week. See you.