Setting the date

Welcome to Virgins Don't Take Pregnancy Tests, where real conversations meet hard truths with Angie and Dave. Welcome to another episode of Virgins Don't Take Pregnancy Tests podcast with Angie and Dave. Um, today's topic is, I think, a really important one, and it's covered a bit in Chapter 3 and 4, but Dave and I wanted to kind of talk you through the process of quitting and, like, actually the event of quitting, what that's like and how you get there, and then also, you know, kind of once you make that decision and you are alcohol-free, like, what does your body feel like? What do things feel like that first, you know, month or couple of months? And then, um, we also are going to talk about some healthy coping mechanisms that a lot of people use when they're trying to quit drinking, and so I'm sure a lot of other topics will come up, um, but I thought I would just kick it off with really in my mind, mentally, when I was like, I have to quit drinking. Um, I had to find something that was scarier than quitting drinking, and for me, it took me a while to find that answer, but it ended up being, I was more afraid of losing the girls than I was afraid of quitting drinking, and once I could establish that, I had kind of made my decision. Now, I went into, uh, rehab, so I have a history of rehabs. I've been to three, um, really between 2011 and 2013, um, but either way, everyone gets to that point where you really just have to actually say you're going to do it, not like, I'm trying to quit, that always leaves the door open, like, I quit, and then you actually have to tell people, right? You don't just keep it hidden so that you're not accountable. You need some accountability. Um, I think that's, that's very important, telling as many people as you can, or as many people as you feel comfortable. Right, right, right. Um, and I know, I, I learned that, that was a big thing about, um, back when I used to smoke and quit smoking, they always used to say, you know, tell people. That way, you don't want to let down more people than you have to. Um, but I think the most important part of what, what you said was that you definitely have to make that decision, and you're right, you can't. Like, no more pussyfooting on it. Yeah, I was just gonna say pussyfoot, that's funny. Um, yeah, you can't. It has to be boom. Like, I quit those two words. And that's the first step. You don't have to know how you're going to do it. You don't have to make a plan right there. You just have to know that is the goal. Then you can worry about how you're going to get there. And for everybody, it's different, right? Like, we're going to talk about, you know, setting a date and what that looks like and how do you go about it. It's different for everybody. Um, I know some people go the, uh, AA route. No, I didn't. Um, you know, some people can just do it and other people turn to God. There's so many different ways. So even with AA, um, anyone that has some familiar familiarity with the 12 steps, cause they, most rehabs are based around that framework. The first step is basically, I mean, I'm not going to get into AA, but you're basically making the decision to quit. And so that's also what Dave and I are saying as far as I think it's really important to acknowledge that you're finally going to quit period and then deal with the rest of your life. Yeah. And, and, and when you set the date, if you set the date and you know, if you miss it, right. And you don't hit that date or whatever, um, you can at least fall back on knowing that you initially did make that decision. And you did at one point, no, you had to set a date and make a decision. Then you just start again. It doesn't mean you failed. It's a process. That's the other thing. Sometimes, I mean, I don't know percentages, but very often people don't get to pick their sobriety date. Um, one, it could be after really bad bender and you're super hung over or you're having symptoms, what have you. It could be a legal crisis where you have criminal charges and you have to quit drinking and AA is required part of your, um, whatever they call it. Right. You have to go through the alcohol classes and all that stuff. And then you might, you might have a, uh, uh, what's the thing you have to blow into to start your car? You know, all that stuff. I mean, a lot of the decisions can be made for you to stop when that stuff goes away and you don't have that to fall back on that crutch. Um, and then it is up to you to actually do it. Then, then that's a whole other set of circumstances. For sure. People are real serious about sobriety when they're about to go to jail. Right. Exactly. And for some, their date may be while they're in jail. It could be. Talk about not having a choice. So here's the thing. I'm, I'm like, when I think about like picking my date, that's not how it worked for me. I mean, I honestly ended up kind of having an epiphany one day while I was drinking and ended up knowing I had to quit. And then there was a period before I actually like, you know, once you decide, then you're actually like, am I going to actually do it? Cause once you try, then you're worried about failure. Right. So if I'm going to quit, I want to make sure that I'm ready to do it. You can talk yourself. You know, I don't, I just, if you're feeling like you need to quit drinking, like pick the date tomorrow and just like get going, get with it. Um, it's a long process. And the other thing I want to just reiterate that you said is I think you're going to find from our conversations, everyone's sobriety journey is completely unique to that person. So what may work for me or Dave does not mean that that's going to work for you. And so I think just having an open openness as you are getting sober and going through the process that there are other people that are going to do it different ways. And again, what works for them may not work for you. So just try to be kind of like, again, open-minded. Yeah. And you know, really expect stumbling blocks, expect it to be more difficult than you think it's going to be, um, because it is. And the first few days, uh, you know, they stink. I mean, in my case, I was a severe case. I mean, I was to the extreme, but like, you know, doing something every day for 30 years and then boom, stopping, that's not normal to consume. Well, that screws with your head. Yeah. And, and to just have that taken out of your life, it's, um, it, it's a, it's a big change. And so I didn't set a date either. Um, I probably had that luxury if I wanted to, I probably could have said, I'll go this day or whatever, whatever. But my, like we had talked about in previous episodes, my, my decision-making is so just boom, do it. Right. And so that's why I was, you know, losing my job Wednesday, get hammered on Thursday, make the call, leave on Friday. And so I didn't set a specific date, but I set a time limit. So I knew I was only going to go into treatment for 30 days. There was no other option for me. I, when I was in there, they had suggested, why don't you stay for 60? Why don't you stay for 45? I said, no, I'm staying. I paid for 30 days. The reason they do that is because outcomes drastically improve the longer you stay inpatient. That's a, that's like, I know, just like it's a fact. Yeah. Um, and I probably should have, I mean, it certainly wouldn't have hurt. Yeah. Wouldn't hurt. Um, but I was steadfast in that I made the decision to do it. I'm going to go 30 days and that's it. And so the scary part about that is I didn't have a backup plan. If that didn't work, I don't know where I would be right now. And the other key thing is when you leave a treatment or at least for me, they set you up with everything. They set you up with so many tools. They put you have more resources. Yeah. Put you in touch with online groups. And, you know, I, and I did, I, for like another two months, I did an online meeting, um, once a week. Um, I forget the name of the group now, but it was like music based and it was like really kind of cool. Yeah. Fun. Um, fun. That's, it wasn't fun, but it, um, I think it's something like once you leave treatment, you have to do something, you have to carry it on by yourself, uh, on your own for a little bit of time until you think you're ready to fully just cut off from any support. Um, you just made me think of something when you're talking about getting rid of something that you've done the last 30 years, do you believe that there's like a grieving process with alcohol? Did you feel that? Or do you think that's just made up bullshit? Like, no, I, I don't know if it's grieving. It's certainly missing. It certainly is in line with a relationship, um, like a huge breakup or a divorce. So, I mean. Um, which is what, which is the irony of the topic for today, setting the date. Like you're almost getting ready to marry sobriety. Marry your sober self. Yeah. Because, you know, hopefully it does, you know, last forever. Um, cause it's, you know, that's, that's what it's supposed to do. Um, but yeah, there's definitely, um, there's a missing it, a grieving process. Like it's like, it's a breakup. Um, anything else when it's easy to just say, you get over it, you know, time heals. I, I actually thought it was, there was a really big grieving process because at that point for me and probably for many other people, that was like the one constant in my life. That's kind of, people weren't talking to me for things. That's your friends. Yeah. And so like, literally that was like my one thing that was like always there. And so, um, yeah, I think that's, that's definitely a real thing that happens. Um, an ice cold beer never broke my heart. Always country. Um, yeah. And it's, it, um, it's hard to get through and I had to be careful. Um, and this kind of will tie into the coping things. I, I missed it a lot. Those first few weeks when I left treatment, it was in treatment. We didn't, we didn't watch sports. We didn't, um, obviously play golf, but like things that would trigger me or remind me of drinking alcohol, we weren't allowed to do. Um, I think we did get to watch while I was in there. I think the Eagles did play the commanders go birds. Um, and they did let us watch that game. But for me, it was, I stayed away from watching the NASCAR race. I stayed away from, from, uh, playing golf. But that was such a part of your ritual. Yeah. You're, you're drinking Sunday weekend ritual like that. I just say Sunday's my best day. Yeah. Right. Golf's on, the race is on, Sunday's watching football. And you have to, you have to make, some people probably don't. I did. I had to give it up because I would have just, uh, I don't know what would have happened, but you have to, you have to commit yourself, um, to, to breaking things that you used to do. It's basically like people, places, and things. So that was a thing that you had to, it was too, too much for you. Yeah. And places. I mean, obviously I don't win in my local bar anymore. Um, I mean, let's, can we just talk about the bar situation for sober people right now? Um, cause I think everyone just, why would it be a big deal to go to a bar, a bar is for drinking. And in your first year of sobriety, this is the only time I'm going to give you a really strong opinion. There's no fucking reason to be in a bar. If you're quitting drinking, I don't care if it's a happy hour. I don't care if it's a birthday. I don't care if your mom has a new guy. She wants you to meet like, no, you got to change the places that you're used to drinking. And for me, it was everything. It was every event. It was every birthday. It was, well, yours is the same. Yeah. Because it becomes such a, uh, you don't even think about it. It's just, you know, drinking was always going to be involved no matter what you were doing. Um, it's still to this day, I can't go into, I think we both know what local bar I'm talking about. Shout out very often. Um, I can't go in there. They have Red Bull on tap. There's zero chance I can go in there. Um, not because I would drink. Dave, you spent so much time there. How could you go there? I couldn't do it. Um, but it, um, but it, so the decision to, to stop need to know going in, it's not just stopping drinking. You have to stop doing a lot of things that you never really thought tied to drinking, but really think about when is the last time, like back when you were, uh, or we were in our, in our, uh, um, drinking phase, like who went bowling and didn't drink pitchers of beer? Nobody. Right. I went to a one-year-old's birthday party and I was floored. There was no alcohol when I first moved to Tampa. Yeah. A one-year-old's birthday party. Yes. And I was expecting it to have an, well, open bar. No, a cooler. Something. A cooler. A cooler. A cooler. A little cooler out back or something. Yeah. Absolutely. I think one thing we should actually talk about a little bit is like when you quit the physical part of it, because I don't want to downplay that and physical withdrawal symptoms can be mild, moderate, severe. And I'd say just from my perspective, if you're having anything other than like sweats, maybe nausea, maybe you're fatigued. If you're having really anything beyond that, you need to probably get medical attention. And you can also, uh, find within the hospitals. They also sometimes have like a rehab floor. And so there's lots of places to go, but I just wanted to mention that because for some people, when they quit drinking, the biggest thing for them is physical, um, symptoms. And as you know, it can get as bad as like grand mal seizures, right? So you've got to be careful if you're having any sort of real severe symptoms around clean drinking. And that's why, and I don't know, I'm sure it was the same for you, but in the treatment center I went to, you, uh, first thing in the morning and last thing at night, you got your temperature taken and your blood pressure checked every morning, every night. Um, and I was close. I was close to them taking me to the hospital to detox. I was right there. Finally, after about six, seven days, my blood pressure came down. Whatever medicine they had me on, they were slowly weaning me off of, uh, you know, the symptoms of detoxing and stuff like that. Cause they have things that can stop the symptoms of withdrawal. Yeah. Um, and so they slowly weaned me off that blood pressure came down, but I was very close to having to go to the hospital and detox before I could go back. And I guess that's the reason people do go to rehab because of the medical component of it. Um, because every time I went, you're on whatever medication with the doctors there. Yeah. And you saw a doctor at least two, three times. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so besides like the physical stuff, like, I think it just feels weird when you, when you quit drinking because like one, it was really like, I don't want to say sad for me, but like, I realized how much I thought about alcohol, like my head. And I was like, I spent an inordinate amount of time in my life thinking about alcohol and that's ridiculous. I still, to this day, I would venture to say every day at some point in the day, I think to myself, I would be drinking a beer right now, whether it's, you know, grilling on the weekend or, or. Let me give you a good example. I always think to myself, I'd be drinking a beer right now if this were three years ago. This is an alcoholic mind. I watched the first episode of Lost. Did you ever see that? Okay. It's a plane crash. It was a plane crash, but the thing that went through my head when they were on the Island and the either part of the plane was still there was like, who's going to get the mini liquor things? Absolutely. But like, I don't, I don't think someone normal would think that or think about that first. So like, literally that's what I was worried about. Like someone getting the mini liquor bottles for my Island. I think about it all the time. How my previous, when I was in it, yeah, I would, I would be drinking like that. It could be anything. Cutting the grass. And I used to, how fucked up I was. I used to, people used to ask me how long it took to do things and I would measure it in beers. Like you said, how long does it take you to cut your grass? Two and a half, three beers. Everything. That's a problem. Everything. Um, yeah, that's a problem, but it's just easier. So I want to spend some time talking about AA Alcoholics Anonymous because it is a big part of a lot of people's sobriety journey. And so one, I did go to AA, um, very much intertwined with my kind of couple of years that I was in rehab, but I did AA probably for three, four years. Um, meaning I did all the steps. I had a sponsor. I went to meetings like I did it all. And, um, for me, the value was early sobriety giving you that support group. Right. So for me, that was what AA was really helpful for to give me some other sober people that knew what I was talking about. Um, I don't go to AA anymore. Um, I haven't been in a really long time. It hasn't been a part of my life. Um, things just changed for me. I didn't need it anymore. And it started to not, I started to not like it as much as I used to like it. And so, um, there were a lot of reasons, but I also, um, I felt pretty focused at that point. And so it's been a while, but AA certainly has its benefits. So I want to say that, um, they help you kind of walk through quitting drinking and cleaning up your life and finding people to talk to and sponsors and meetings. And, um, they have the big, it's called the big book is like the AA book. And you read that as part of your recovery and the steps are basically the book explains the steps. Um, and so I just wanted to kind of talk about it. You had very little experience with AA, right? So when I was in my, uh, the IOP that I had to do, um, I don't know if it was, uh, mandatory that I had to attend AA meetings. Um, I think AA for me, because I did go to some meetings, I probably went to half a dozen. Um, I, it, it was more of a mask for me. Like I was trying to show people that, yeah, I'm, I'm serious. I'm, I'm going to AA and everything. I didn't pay attention to AA. When I, when I walked into an AA meeting, I heard God, I heard it end with a prayer. And I just, I was out on AA from the very beginning. Um, just, I can't do it. I don't do that. I can't do it anymore either. I just, that's just my thing. Um, and so when I was in treatment, um, at the house, they used to have a, uh, uh, uh, representative from AA would come, um, every, every once, once a week and, um, you know, tell their story. And I remember the guy's name was Peter. There goes the anonymous part. And, uh, me and this other guy, um, we just, we were out on it. We wouldn't even go to it. We like went for like two, two sessions and we're like, I can't, I just can't deal with this. Um, and so all the new people that would come in, we would tell them, yeah, this guy, Peter, he's awesome. You definitely need to check this out. Go in there when he kind of, he just sit there for two hours and drone on about God and AA. And, um, it can definitely be, I know a lot of, I know in people, I think it's 50, 50, and maybe I just don't give it enough of a, of a chance or, or benefit of the doubt. But, um, a lot of people swear by it. And I think a lot of that is like what you said, the, the, the, like a support group and having people to talk to and you get a sponsor and, and that's like, I, when I was in AA and I was like, miss sober AA girl, like I did my summer trips with them. Like we would get a sober house in Cambridge. Like, why would I tell you this? You'd never know. But on the way to ocean city, Cambridge, we like did everything together. It that's why some people call it a cult. And I don't like that word, but there are some, uh, characteristics of it that can feel that way. I think for some people, um, the, um, I just remember like the general rule, I think is, uh, you should pick a sponsor who has at least one year sobriety. Me at one year, I couldn't be anyone's sponsor. I was too busy. I couldn't even, I was still worried about myself when I was at once. I still couldn't be someone's sponsor. I'm almost three years. I wouldn't, I, I would never even put that on myself to be quote unquote responsible for someone else's sobriety. I couldn't do it. Um, it's hard enough just for me, but like, I just wanted to talk through it a bit and it does work and some people do swear by it. And so it only works if you work it. Well, actually what I was going to say is it only works. If you work it meeting makers, make it, I can't give you all the things, but like you, I believe that you can get sober if you do everything that they're asking you to do. I think it would be a really good framework for early sobriety. Um, that's where I kind of land with it. I absolutely would be behind, um, the statement that it's a great starting, starting point. Um, and I would also go as far as to say, uh, if you are, um, if you are toying with the idea of, of getting sober and you want to see what that atmosphere looks like, you should attend a meeting or two, um, just to get an idea. The other thing to hear other people's stories, it really does give you a sense of, Oh my God, it's not just me. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. All the stories. Like you finally feel like you're like, okay, these people did it. I did it. That kind of thing. Um, what else was I going to say about it? Oh, the other thing I think AA was helpful with, and I, I definitely did. This was the ninth step, which is where you like make amends to everyone that you've harmed in your drinking. And so I think by that time you are a little bit further along and you are able to kind of make these apologies to people that you either injured or did something horrible to them while you were drinking. Um, and so that part was, I think, really helpful in terms of kind of cleaning up my, my life. Do you remember, um, don't know if you were going through AA or not, but it was the, it was when I hadn't talked to you for a very long time. When we went to breakfast? No. Well, we went to lunch. Oh, lunch. And I can't even remember the name of the place. They had outstanding, like bang, bang shrimp. Oh, Oh, fish, fish bone, fish bone, fish, bone fish. So long story short, we were in where I, you and I had not talked for years. I don't know where you and Kathy were. Kathy just came to me and said, Hey, Angie wants to talk to you. And I was like, okay. In the back of my mind, cause now I feel like such an asshole. Like I can't wait to fucking order a beer right in front of her. I can't wait. You were an asshole. I 100% thought that. And I did. I remember as soon as we sat down, I saw Miller, like I get tall Miller, like, and I didn't know it at the time because I knew nothing about AA. But then when I got into my shit and I learned about AA and the, um, apologizing and all that amends, amends, I started thinking, Holy shit. Was I a step? Was I a step? Was Angie making amends to me? You probably were. And it was, I such an asshole that I couldn't wait to order a beer. I actually do think. But she's reaching out. I actually, I actually think that I did. I think that I did. That was the reason we went to lunch. Yeah. I'm, it was random. It was out of nowhere because I think I had sworn off. I hate to say this now, any contact with you, but, um, good came from it, right? Look at us now. I mean, that's the thing. At the time I didn't know it. It was only when I started learning about AA and the steps that I thought back to, Holy shit, Angie, she was making amends. I mean, like one of my cousins still, I guess, never knew I went to AA, but one of our uncles is in sobriety. And when she talks about him, she's like, in his program, he can only do certain things in his program. Yeah. That sounds cultish. Yes. So a lot of people think that. Yeah. Well, but I will, I will say, I think that about religion. Yeah. That's a whole other podcast. Well, AA is very faith, religious centered for sure. Yeah. Although they'll tell you, you can pick anything for your God. You could pick the fern, anything that's not yourself. Let's not get me started. Let's not get me started. Um, so do you want to jump into coping? Yeah. I think, um, for so many of us, alcohol and drinking was just a really bad coping mechanism. So coping, like, um, like, I feel like we used to cope with life by drinking. Totally. Yeah. Right. So no matter what it was, whether it was a positive or really high, high or really low, low, Hey, drink, right. You drink to celebrate. You drink when something doesn't go your way. Every situation. Um, everything could, would always go back to dealing with it, um, with, with drinking and it doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. A lot of people, you know, drink to celebrate things or whatever. Um, but once you don't use alcohol as a coping mechanism, you have to cope with not using alcohol as a coping mechanism. So when, when you're sitting there and like for me, for example, when I'm thinking, God, I would be having a beer right now. And then if the wheels get going and it, Oh, and I just start thinking about a beer, like what can you do to get that out of your head? Right. The easy ones are shower, uh, watching movie. I'm a big fan of taking a nap. Um, one of the, one of the hidden tricks is if you eat something and then just have a glass of water, you'll feel so much fricking better. I'd never even heard that. Yeah. I'm serious. That's just a physical thing. Like you're not hangry. You're not, you know, that kind of thing, but yeah, instead of like, just do something that will take your mind off. You know, some people have like the slap bracelets and all that stuff. Um, so what would you do? Say you got in a big argument with your wife for some reason. And typically I would drink if that happened at my house, what's something that you can do instead of drinking? Like, what do you, what do you rely on? The first thing that I do now, uh, and you know, believe it or not, and this probably has a lot to do with, with the fact that that we don't drink, um, is I, I've learned to, to, to walk away. Oh yeah. Not stay in the argument. Um, take 20 minutes. Yeah. Just walk away from it. Um, and then, um, you've been, and then we'll come back to it and cooler heads prevail. Um, but I, I, you have to do just something with your hands or something that your brain has to think about something else. Um, you know, it can be, uh, you know, uh, crossword puzzles, word searches. Um, I, I don't know if the easy ones are, you know, working out, watching a movie, going for a walk. Um, going for a walk. I use a lot. Um, I think also just, um, talking to other people, like sometimes you just need to kind of talk it through. I know that sounds silly and dumb, obviously, but I think if there's someone that you can talk to potentially that is, has already quit drinking so that they kind of know where you're coming from, because the first, the first couple of years are so hard to figure out your way without alcohol. Um, it's just baffling to kind of look back and see how big of a part of my life it was and how little of a part it is right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also, um, it may sound like cheesy or whatever, but you know, you learn, um, you know, all these phrases, right. Um, that I'll, I'll say them to myself a lot. Um, like I always say, and Kathy, she doesn't laugh at me, but I always say thoughts aren't facts. That's like one of the most important things that I've learned, I think in treatment that thoughts aren't facts. Cause I was old. Mine is this too shall pass. Yeah. This too shall pass. Um, mine, uh, thoughts aren't facts. Um, cause you can drive yourself crazy. I used to think all the time when I was at work, if two people went into an office and shut the door, they were talking about me. There was no doubt in my mind that they were talking about and that would just set me spinning. There goes my anxiety comes back. Yeah. Just that, that would set it off. Um, but now I think just when those things happen, when, when, when you start getting a serious craving, um, just taking a step back, uh, realizing you've had these before you've gotten through them before hopefully. Um, and yeah, and that this two shot pass. Um, if you can just step back, if you're having a craving and I know it feels like the weight of the world, but if you can somehow talk yourself into like, if I still feel like drinking in an hour, I can drink. Okay. If I still feel like it in one hour, I can drink. The whole thing is like eventually like it, it does come and go. Like, I don't know how many minutes, but just being able to park it is a really good, um, coping mechanism. And then again, I think also being accountable. So like, I need to be around people that know I can't drink, um, is the other piece. Yeah. And I, I think, um, and it gets easier as you get further along because, um, the further you go into sobriety, um, then it doesn't become about just letting yourself down. I personally would feel like I let down everyone who has ever said, I'm proud of you to me. Like, I would just feel like I completely just like smack them in the face. And, um, that to me is like my biggest coping mism, coping mechanism might be the, the fear of letting myself and other people down. And that's strong enough. Um, that's just sheer willpower. Yeah. And that's strong enough to get me through it to like, I, I, I, I would be just beside myself if I, if that were to happen to me, I'm not saying it won't, I'm just saying like, for now, like if I, if I were to have a drink, I would let so many people down in my mind that it's just doesn't even come close to being worth it. Yeah. I mean, I think that whole accountability thing with your family is probably the number one motivator for folks. Um, but some people they're just really, really sick and they'll keep drinking and keep lying. And you know how it goes. Like you're lucky if you can actually get a reprieve from it and beat it and how that can look on the other side. Yeah. And that's the thing getting to get into the other side where it's hard to get to the point where you understand how good it feels. And then that becomes what you want to strive for to keep going. It's hard to get to that point. Um, and you can't even like put it into words like and explain to somebody that, the, the feeling of, of an accomplishment that it is. Um, how about just like feeling physically good? Yeah, that's a huge part of it. Um, feeling physically good is, uh, it's enough of that, that in and of itself is enough of a reason. I've been through enough medical things and have felt bad enough and had enough scares to where I don't need that shit. Yeah. I mean, that's just, that's a huge one. Um, that's a huge driving factor, you know, into not relapsing. And the fact is people do relapse. Most people probably will relapse. Um, I am a relapser. I'm just like categorizing myself, not now, not today, but like me getting really to a point where I was call myself sober. It would took a lot. It took a lot. And like, even we talked about, you know, when my husband passed away, I was going to AA at that point. So that was 2011. So it took me a long time to actually be able to quit drinking, like for real. It just, I started it so many times and. Right. And that, so that would lead me into, um, so just kind of circling back to like the name of this episode of setting the date. Yeah. Like, I also think, um, like I know my specific date. I mean, I count the day that I went into treatment. I used to have a sober app. So you count your minutes, seconds, hours. Yeah. Yeah. I still, if you were to look at my Google history, if you, if you were to start typing in the, in the search of Google, um, how long ago was it would auto complete with October 4th, 2023. I do it twice a week, um, just to see the, the number of how many days it is. So I think that's important for you. It's important. And I think, and I think for you in your case, I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I mean, you may not have a specific date, but I think it's important, um, for everyone to come up with one. I don't care if you make one up, just pick a day where you were fucking sober and you haven't drank since that day. Let that be your date. Um, because then it, then it almost becomes, um, not that you're striving to hit that date again, but like, I'm not there yet, but it's going to feel really good. It's pride. It's going to feel really good on October 4th to say I'm at three years. Totally. Um, and it becomes almost like a birthday. Yeah. And I think everyone should have a date because it is something to celebrate. It is something you should be proud of. Um, and so, yeah, like not, not that that's a goal or anything, but it, you should have a date and you should take pride in when you hit that date because I mean, like, I mean, we've said it a hundred times. It's just, it's not easy. Yeah. I mean, and there are some people that don't believe in setting dates, but I think you'll find like through a lot of people's stories, most people have like an important date or their sobriety date. Right. Um, like I said, June 28th, 2013 is kind of like, that's the one I was going to get tattooed. Yeah. I think everyone thinks about that. I think everyone goes through the sober tattoo phase. Um, I did. It wasn't going to be a date. It was going to be something motivational. Um, I don't know. I never really got that far. Like I'm kind of big on karma. Yeah. At one point I was researching like the symbols for karma and shit like that. Um, so here's the, here's the problem with rehab and AA. If you are a relapser, it introduces you to people that have extreme drinking or drug behavior. It's, you're getting into a group of people that are maybe not, if they don't stay sober could be a really bad role model. Sure. And I think that that also occurs in AA or treatment. Um, because you are, you'll have to be careful with, you know, you want to be around someone that's going to not drink. If you say, let's drink, not someone that says, okay, I'll go buy it. Yeah. You know, I remember in IOP, we were on a break and we were outside and this, this one kid, uh, he, I don't even know how it came up. We're just in a group, like standing around and the kid said, no, if you guys want to like come here and like, if you want to drink and stuff, like before you come in or when you're at work, like peanut butter, peanut butter works really good. Just take like a spoonful of peanut butter. The guy, the guy next to me and next to this kid was like, get the fuck out of here. Like some of us are trying to take this serious. What are you doing? Yeah. Like he was pissed. Yeah. Um, I don't know that we ever saw that guy again, but yeah, you know, there's, there's, there's ways to, uh, there's ways to motivate yourself. And I, I think setting a date and having a date is important. Yeah. For me, it's just a lot of things, but like, this is funny because I remember, so I was so used to feeling good, being sober, not drinking. I remember the first time I had a really bad headache, almost a migraine. And I was so miserable and I couldn't believe that I used to have my body probably feel that way every day of my life, even though, yeah, you don't get hangovers, but you know what I mean? Just that. Yeah. It, it, it gets to the point where it was, it was weird to wake up and shit, not hurt. Right. And that's a great thing. And then that's what I expect. So when I had the headache, I remember I acted like, Oh my God. Yeah. It blows your world up. I was complaining. I was like, I need you to go get this. Yeah. Yeah. Just the feeling good physically and mentally. I mean, there's so many reasons to, to, to, to, to not drink, to not put that in your body. And I don't, I don't want to sound preachy or whatever, but it should, when I look back on how I felt then and how I felt, how I feel now, it's a no brainer. Yeah. It's not even a, it's not even close. Yeah. But that just gets back to the, the, the point of alcohol itself being a coping mechanism. Yeah. I would reach for it regardless of what. Yeah. It doesn't matter. I mean, it's like, you know, you know, when you said go into that, the, the, the first birthday party, like it blows your mind. What are you talking about? You're going to have any, I don't care what kind of party it is. If you say party, you know, I remember being like totally dumbfounded. I mean, like I couldn't believe it. Um, what was, I was kind of prepared for that. I just kept my own cool. I would just go out to my truck. Yeah. I always brought alcohol for sure. That's actually the other, the, uh, one of the like healthy coping mechanisms. This is more just like a trick of the trade, but you do it with water, but like anywhere I go, I've kind of, my new drinks are sort of like flavored seltzers with some have caffeine, some I put fruit in. I also drink a shit ton of diet Coke, which isn't good for you. But like my theory is like, if that's the worst thing I do, like I'm a okay. Yeah. And I will have, I'll have a non-alcoholic beer, um, every now and then. That's a tough, that's a controversial topic in the sobriety world. Why, why is it? I think it was more controversial several years ago when, um, even like O'Doul's, uh, I don't know. We're like 0.01. And O'Doul's was the only one, right? That was the only non-alcoholic beer out there. And they were all 0.03, 0.005. Because it was a bit, when I was in AA, it was a big no-no. Huge. Big no-no to drink. But now, like legit non-alcoholic beers and everyone makes them. Everyone. Heineken makes them. Coors makes them. Budweiser makes them. Um, these, uh, Stella makes them. I mean, even like Blue Moon makes them and they're all 0.00 alcohol. And so I don't feel bad about having one every now and then. Um, I will tell you the most scared, probably the second or third most scared I've ever been in my life was, uh, after coming out of treatment and being probably around two years, being at dinner at, at the beach and wanting a non-alcoholic beer and just getting up the courage to say to my wife, do you care if I order a non-alcoholic beer? So it took me a while, just real quick story. And I did it. She didn't say a word. She gave a look and I knew the look, the look was, do not let this be the start. Do not fuck up. Do not let this be the fucking snowball. Not, yeah. So it literally went like this. Do you mind if I order a non-alcoholic beer? I know, I know, I promise. Like that's it. She didn't say a word and I just said, I know because I knew the look. People, that's the sort of like whole ritual piece of it. Right? Right. So the argument now is on my side is that, uh, it is 0.0% alcohol. Um, a hundred, like no alcohol. Um, and also I think there's a reason why so many, uh, companies make it now. I mean, it's there for a reason. And the reason is not to make you think you're drinking alcohol. Yeah. Um, for me, I legit love the taste of beer. I drank it for 30 years every day. I like the taste. So some people like the taste of it. There's also non-alcoholic wine. There's non-alcoholic vodka. So if I want to have a non-alcoholic beer, when I'm fucking grilling a steak, I'm going to, and I'm not going to feel bad about it because that's what it's for. I'm still not putting alcohol in my body. That's my argument. Um, now I can play devil's advocate and you can start to bring in muscle memory. Like you're just reminding your, your body. It's just continuing the snowball effect, continuing the behavior ish. Yeah. And so, I mean, so far it has not been a thing for me. I've opened one and not even finished it. I, it's just, here's where I kind of like the taste of beer and yeah. And that's a, that's a good example, but like, here's where I kind of landed, which is also kind of what I started the episode off with. Like if it works for someone and they like it and it doesn't impact their sobriety and they never think about alcohol when they drink it, like go for it. Like I actually, like, I'm really at a place where I don't want anyone to judge my sobriety and I don't want to judge anyone else's. And so like, if that's your thing, if you want to have a 0.0, go for it. The problem is why would you feel guilty? You shouldn't feel like you shouldn't feel worried about that. I know, but I know, I know what you mean. And that only goes to show like how bad my shit was, how bad it got, how bad off I was in my drinking depression, anxiety. My entire world was a fucking mess. And that look, when I asked that look from Kathy was don't, please don't get back to that. And so she didn't even have to say a word. And by the way, while we're talking about Kathy, because I don't, and she, we, she and I have never talked about this and, um, she a hundred percent stopped drinking as well. Yep. Um, I came home from treatment and there was zero alcohol in the house. We've never spoken about it. I've never thanked her. I don't think. Um, it just was like a, uh, known thing. Yeah. And, but, but had she not done that, no chance I would have been able to continue not drinking. And she doesn't know like how much I appreciate that. She will now. Um, but yeah, we never, we've never talked about it. She never asked. Um, I never suggested it just was an organic thing that happened and it just has continued to happen. Um, and she, even when I was, when I was going through like my IOP and all that stuff and really trying to quit, um, only doing a non-alcoholic beers and she switched to, if she would have a beer, it would be a non-alcoholic as well. But then when my shit got really my shit, um, and I, and I came out of the house out of treatment, yeah, she did that. And it's not even, um, it's not even a question that, that her doing that. I can definitely see how, how it would help. Um, I think a lot of people struggle cause they have partners that are doing the same thing and they don't want to quit and then it's just this big. Yeah. I mean, such a selfless, uh, generous act on her part that honestly, I don't, I, I literally, I wouldn't be sitting here if she didn't do that. That's awesome. I don't know how we got off on that tangent, but, um, no, we were just talking about coping mechanisms and I think, I think in a roundabout way, that's kind of a coping mechanism. Her not, her not doing that helps me. Definitely. Definitely. Um, but yeah. That's been, that's been, if not the most important part because yeah, I mean, I, and I'm still so early that I, I don't know if for whatever reason in like fucking some mamby pamby land, if she's not home when I go home and for some reason I go home and there's beer in the fridge, I'm probably gonna drink it. I probably would drink it. Um, I would like to think I wouldn't. Oh, here's what I wanted to ask you. I'm sorry. I'm getting off on a tangent. I thought about this the other day. I don't know where I saw it. I, cause I know my answer. If you knew 100% fact tomorrow, you were going to die. Would you drink today? I always used to say I would, but.