If drinking is the answer, what's the question?

Hi, I'm Angie McCloskey, and welcome to Virgins Don't Take Pregnancy Tests, the podcast. So, the first is just a quick, uh, story about the name of the podcast and book. I, gosh, over 20 years ago, I was in Tampa going to my first AA meeting, and I remember I drove, like, 45 minutes away from my house, so I wouldn't run into anyone, and I ended up at this, like, Monday night thing, and it was a lot of older people, and there was only one other woman, and she was, like, you know, no offense, but, like, 70s, and so I thought, in a AA meeting, like, you raised your hand if you wanted to share, but since this was, like, a very small group, they decided to go around the room, and I was mortified, and so when it was my turn, I basically was, like, I don't know what I'm doing here, I don't think this is for me, you know, something like that, and this really nice gentleman, like, leaned over to me, and he was, like, honey, virgins don't take pregnancy tests, and I just sat there, like, feeling completely stupid, I had no idea what he was talking about, and everyone kind of starts laughing, and then I got it, duh, um, so, like, normal drinkers don't, like, go to AA meetings to, like, test out if they have a drinking problem, so that's the whole gist of that, um, and now I want to introduce my first guest, and, uh, this is special for a bunch of reasons, one, the book primarily targets females, and this is obviously an issue open to all, uh, genders, so I wanted to bring in the male voice with my guest, um, he's also my brother-in-law, so he's part of my family, we've had lots of drinks, food, events, holidays together, um, some really good times, and then, uh, you know, we both kind of had this thing in our past, um, as far as the drinking, so, um, why Dave, he's family, I'm super excited to have you, um, just to kind of set the frame, let's kind of play the whole tape through today, so, like, even maybe, let's just kick it off with, um, the title of your episode, so, it's, if drinking is the answer, what's the question? Right. Where did that come from, and then we'll kind of get into your, your story. Sure, so, like, you had heard that virgins don't take pregnancy tests in an AA meeting, and I had heard one of the therapists, uh, one of my therapists, um, had said to me at one time, you know, if drinking's the answer, what's the question, and I still don't know the answer, and that kind of hit me. But it paused, you had to pause. I did, it hit me, and I was like, uh, God, and, and I still think about it, I still think about it all the time, trying to come up with the answer, and, um, I don't have one, I don't have an answer for it yet, I mean, it'd be easy to say stress, or depression, or, uh, masking, or something, but I don't, I don't know what the, what the question is. All right, um, so, that's interesting. Um, let's, let's start in South Jersey, maybe at the age of 13. I think that's when you said you kind of started drinking, or first drank with your brother, and there's a great story about raiding your parents' liquor cabinet. Right, so, uh, when I was about 13, so my brother would have been about 18, he was, uh, training for the Navy SEALs, and, um, that was a pretty big deal, and I, I, the only thing I really remember is he thought it would be a good idea. Um, first of all, I don't know whose idea it was to raid the liquor cabinet, but we did. It was, it was cream to mint and, and Seagram's all the way around, and, uh, he thought it'd be a good idea around two or three in the morning, let's go for a run, because he was training, and that's what he was going to have to be doing. That's what I think of it. Right, so he threw me over the back fence, and, uh, we went for a run, about two or three in the morning, and, uh, I don't know if I had eaten, uh, you know, uh, Fruit Loops or some sort of cereal, but I ended up throwing up all over the place, and I don't know if that was my first drink, that was definitely the first time that I got drunk, and I just remember sitting in the chair, and the room was spinning, and, uh, I thought it was cool, because I was hanging out, doing something with my brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, um, and then from there, talk to me about how things kind of progressed with the Jersey Shore, and, uh, living there, and working, give us an idea of that, that, uh, situation. Right, so the Jersey Shore is a real thing. Not just a TV show. Right, me and my friends did, uh, rent houses in the Jersey Shore, and worked on the boardwalk in Wildwood, uh, for three years, um, after my sophomore, junior, and senior year, and much like the show, it is a one perpetual drunken day slash night after another. Um, we were just getting hammered, and working on the boardwalk, and doing what people that age do during the summer, um, and it was a lot of drinking, um, and after my, uh, after the last season that I worked down the shore, I wanted to go to college, I mean, I, I didn't really have the grades or means to get into a real college, so I enrolled in the community college, and, um, just wasn't my jam. I, uh. You did, like, one year of that? I did probably half a semester. Were you kidding, or did you really take psychology or sociology? Sociology was one of the, I don't know, I don't, I don't even, back then, I didn't even know what sociology meant. I just thought it sounded really cool, so that was one of my classes, and, you know, the biggest mistake was I had to walk by the game room every day to get to any sort of classes, so I never made it to many, and, uh, college just wasn't going to be my jam, so. So, this gets to a pretty important part of your life, um, you said this is the first best decision you ever made, because I asked you, I know quitting drinking was the second, we'll talk about that later, but give me an idea of your mindset and kind of where your drinking was going into the Marines, and then share with everyone how, I knew the Marines had a really heavy drinking culture. Sure. But it seems, I mean, I just felt there was a sense of, like, getting in trouble, and, like, mayhem a bit, so give me an understanding. Yeah, so, so the Marines kind of have a bad rap, um, they say you're going to become one of three things, if you become a Marine, you're going to, you're going to be a workout freak, like just a fitness fanatic in the gym all the time, you're going to be a Bible beater, uh, just Jesus, go Jesus, church, uh, or you're going to be an alcoholic, those are kind of your three options, and I don't believe in God or organized religion, and I clearly don't work out, so, uh, my path was pretty much laid out, um, destiny. So, yeah, I mean, in the Marines, it was a lot of drinking, a lot of mayhem, a lot of, uh, a lot of good times, a lot of bonding over drinking, um, much like it was in high school, it wasn't that different other than we had to get up early and, and, you know, listen. Do physical exertion hungover. Do physical things hungover, learn how to do physical things hungover. Um, but I always say, like, the longest, since I was 18, the, the longest I've ever gone without drinking was those three months of bootcamp. Okay. Um, so I literally just woke up one day and I didn't know what to do. I don't know where it came from, but I was going to join the military because I had to do something. Um, and I wasn't going to join the Navy because my brother had just joined the Navy. Um, and I wanted to do the toughest bootcamp that was left. Yeah. Tell me about that. What's, what's that all about? Well, I don't really like to do that. Parris Island is where you go when the East coast, if you're east of the Mississippi, west of the Mississippi, I don't know if they've changed it. You go to San Diego, but I went to Parris Island and I literally woke up and within 30 seconds of waking up, I was on the phone with the recruiter saying, I want to join the Marines. Um, that was after the summer of 93. So we're talking probably beginning in 94. Um, and I left, uh, for Parris Island, uh, Valentine's day, February 14th. Wow. Yep. 1994. All right. And then, um, so I feel like we didn't really talk about your family life enough before we move on. And so, um, I know you guys raided your parents' liquor cabinet. Um, what was the culture around drinking in your family? Because I know how my family was and it was, I don't remember it being a big part of it, but when I turned like college age, I realized it was a big part of it. Yeah. I don't know that it was a huge part of it. Um, growing up, I don't remember, um, you know, anything really majorly concerning about drinking or anything during the time. I mean, I know, you know, my parents would have friends over and, you know, we were friends with neighbors and stuff like that and never get togethers. Um, family stuff with holidays and stuff. I mean, you know, there were beer and wine, like, like anything else. Um, nothing, nothing that raised or raises now any red flags. Um, so I considered it pretty, pretty normal growing up. Okay. Um, and then once you joined the Marines, how long were you like, give me an idea of timeline. So this is in your twenties. Well, I was 18 when I joined. Yeah. Okay. So early February of 94. And I got out in, um, February 98. So four years. Okay. And that's when you moved to Maryland. Yep. I got out and moved to Maryland. So I guess I was like 22. Okay. And this is where your first time living alone. This is where I had, Oh no. Okay. No, I had moved in with my former girlfriend from high school and we had lived together for a little bit. Okay. Um, and then she wised up and got out of there. Did she leave because of your drinking? No, no, no. I don't even remember why. And that's how, uh, I just know she went back to New Jersey and I stayed here. And, um, then I moved in on my own and was living on my own, uh, for the first time. And it was, um, I think a typical single 22 year old apartment. As far as there was a, you know, I have an image of like Southern comfort bottles. There were Southern comfort bottles all over the place that those were my decorations. Um, just lining the, uh, the top of the cabinets in the kitchen. Were you drinking that every night? Uh, I, I would be lying if I said no, I would also be lying if I said, I remember every single night from then. I assume yes. Um, but yeah, so I was living on my own and, um, How do you get to a really big point in your journey has been around depression and anxiety? And, um, I know it became a really core part of your world for a while. Can you kind of share what was going on there? And then we'll talk about some heavier stuff. Sure. Um, so I don't think I really started to get into my depression and anxiety until maybe 2021, 2022. Um, then it got really bad. Um, so you were already married and a father. Married, father, um, yeah. And I don't even, I don't have a reason why, um, I fell into a deep, deep state of depression and, um, and anxiety. I was anxious all the time. I didn't, couldn't be around people. I didn't like to be around people. I could fake it well enough. Um, but just depression and anxiety just overtook my life. And, um, the drinking didn't increase, but it didn't slow down. And to this day, I don't know if I drank because I was depressed and anxious or if I was anxious because I drank, um, I'm assuming a little bit of both. Yeah. That's the chicken and the egg for everyone with mental health issues. So, yeah, I don't know. I just know that it was bad and I got seriously, um, seriously depressed. And then take us to you, um, move and end up getting married and living in Woodbridge. Tell me about your job at, this is where you started working in DC. Yes. Um, and was this a period of increased drinking or just more of the same? Um, more of the same as far as drinking goes. Um, so nothing, uh, majorly changed on that front as far as consumption. Um, I think the only thing that really changed during that time was stress, um, and, um, just the stress of not really the job, but the commute, uh, the commute was terrible. Um, and, uh, I didn't look forward to it. I didn't look forward to that every day. Um, and you know, I was there 22 years. So that wasn't that long. Yeah. It was a struggle. Um, there's the, that's the commute is what I always come back to was the worst part. Um, but it was a pretty big drinking culture. I remember at that company. Sure. It wasn't, um, it wasn't glorified. It wasn't, um, it wasn't necessarily frowned upon, uh, to be drinking. You either work for a company that, like, you drink at lunch or you don't. Yeah. And we did, we drank at lunch and we always knew who had a bottle in our office. It was almost weird if you didn't have a bottle in your office. Um, so that's not normal. No, but in that, but in that culture it was in that, in that culture it was, but, um, but I don't blame, I don't blame that culture and being in that culture on my, um, issues. Um, if I were to blame my drinking on anything, um, I would say bad choices, just, just choosing to continue even knowing, um, the possible repercussions. Um, well, that's what it's crazy. Cause the smartest people do that. Right. And it's right. And to still do it, knowing the repercussions and thinking you're smarter than the repercussions or you can't get caught or you're bigger than that. Um, it just looking back on it, it just, it just wasn't smart. It just wasn't, it's not smart choices. So as far as like not smart choices, um, take me back to like, you're working in downtown DC. And then I know there's a pretty significant event that happens, um, that is a combination of minimal drinking, um, and then some potential healthcare issues. And you caused quite a scene in front of your office, it sounds like. So take me to kind of what was going on in that period of your life. So, uh, just that specific incident was, um, uh, I don't remember if that was still COVID or not. Anyway, me and me and a colleague were, were out at lunch and had a couple of beers, three beers, maybe four. Um, and then, uh, walking to my truck after work, uh, I just was walking and then I woke up surrounded by a group of people, um, cops, ambulances. Um, I had just passed out while walking to my truck, walking to the parking lot. And, um, I don't remember it. Uh, I just remember waking up and being like, well, what is going on? I didn't really, took me a second to figure out where I was. Um, and I just looked around. I saw like, it seemed like half the building was there because everyone, more than half the building had to walk to this parking lot. Right. And it was just the end of the day and down there to beat the traffic, 415, boom, everyone's gone. So everyone saw it, big group gathered around, um, friend of mine, same guy I was out with that, that afternoon at lunch, uh, drove me home, drove my truck, uh, home. And, um, and that was that. So that was pretty embarrassing. Uh, and the next day I actually, uh, took myself to the hospital and I got diagnosed with I got diagnosed with rhabdo. Um, I'm not sure if like rhabdomyelosis. Yeah, I can't say it either. Um, yeah, so that's, I think that's why they call it rhabdo also, which any number of things can cause it. But is one of them drinking? It's, it's way down the list, but sure. I'm sure it didn't not cause it. I mean, I saw it on one list, but I didn't see it on another. So I don't know what the real story is. I mean, it's generally, uh, from overexertion. And you were lifting at that time. And I was doing a lot of lifting boxes and a lot of shipping and I was definitely overexerted. But, you know, I don't think alcohol caused it, but I don't think it necessarily would have had I not, had I not been drinking as much as I was, it didn't help it. But had I not been drinking as much as I was, that probably wouldn't happen. My drinking three beers that day at lunch was not why I passed out walking to my truck. Right. I got it. So you started, it actually started having some big consequences for you at work. Yes, for sure. Um, and I think after that, I think I literally, I'm not sure what it was called or leave of absence or whatever, but I didn't go back to work. Um, my, cause I spent, I just spent a couple of days in the hospital and I, I, and I didn't go back to work for, I think about 30 days. And I think it was just a unfuck yourself for a little bit and then, you know, we'll see where we're at. Yeah. Um, when I went back and it seems like every little incident that I had at that job, I went from the back corner office to a different office closer to the front door. And then the receptionist desk right next to the front door. It's like, I kept literally and figuratively getting closer to the door. That's hilarious. Um, yeah. Until, and I think when I came back from that, I had to sign a piece of paper, uh, that basically said that I wouldn't drink at work anymore. And if I did. And they were having you do inpatient at the time or outpatient at the time? Uh, I had done inpatient before that. Maybe after that, who knows? First I had to do an outpatient program with them, which was, um, supposed to be, I think, uh, eight sessions. So I think two months, um, it ended up being about three, three and a half months because I popped positive on a couple tests during the. Did work find out that you tested positive? I don't know because it was like cahoots between my boss and the director of the program. They were going back and forth about my progress, my participation, my attendance, which I didn't never missed anything. I participated. I went to, I went to AA meetings. Um, they, I, I don't remember if they were a stipulation or if I chose to do it on my own, but I did. How many AA meetings did you go to? We never have talked about it. Um, I've been to. Like, did you go for a while or you just went while you were in the. Uh, just while I was in that program, um, I went to, um, I found one, uh, uh, church down in DC. Um, that would even go to like during the day when I, when I thought that I was really serious this time, I'm going to beat it. Um, it's, and then, you know, it's didn't happen. Um, and, um, so I completed that outpatient program. Um, and then, um, yeah. And then I went back to work and then I think the rhabdo thing happened. And then when I came back from that, I had to sign something that said, um, that I wouldn't drink at work again, or it could be terminate my employment or whatever. Um, and I signed it cause I had a big plan. It wasn't going to happen to me. And, um, you know, sure as shit did, um, drink at work. Yeah. And I don't even remember the specifics of it. Um, I just knew when I got called down and told that this was my, that was going to be my last day. I just, you know, I, what were you going to say? Yeah. I'm going to say, you know, I signed it. I mean, and you know, I wasn't going to lie because, you know, what does that do? And it was almost. Probably a little bit of a relief. A little bit of a relief. I swear to Christ. The first thing I thought of was fuck this commute, you know? And so there's silver lining, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. And then I assumed that that put me on the path that, that I'm on now. I'm sure that helped. Yeah. Um, but then, I mean, I'll just, I'll progress it just to that point a little more. Uh, so I think that was a Wednesday, um, that I got told that would be my last day. I got escorted out of the building. Is this now October, 2023? October, 2023. Okay. And, um, I, I got, went home, uh, got hammered that night. Um, I think I was drinking a little bit on that Thursday, the day after. And then, uh, I had called and found a spot, um, with an open bed for, um, to go to a 30 day inpatient, um, spot. Um, I called a spot, a house, a treatment center. Um, I don't call it rehab. I'm not, I'm not a big rehab or. This was your, um, we'll just give them a plug mission for Michael. Yes. And you found it yourself. So you did, there wasn't anyone that were, was like, you have to go here. No, I wasn't told I had to go anywhere. I called, I called my boss who, who was also my best friend, by the way, Lisa, Lisa. Yeah. We had known each other for ever. Um, so I called her and I said, listen, I got to do something. I don't know. I, everything was like foggy. I didn't know. I knew I had insurance still, but I didn't, I didn't know what was available to me. And she had said, well, you're still part of the employee assistance program. Um, call this number, I think. Um, and I called that number and I said, listen, uh, this is a Thursday. And I said, listen, I need this. I need a spot. And, uh, and they happen to have a spot and a, and a, a called a mission for Michael. And the house was in Vienna and a mission for Michael is a, um, a mission for Michael. It's a treatment center for depression, anxiety, and addictive behavior is their official tagline. Like dual diagnosis people. Right. So, which is a great fit. Right. And when I was there, um, apparently it's a good spot. Cause there were people from Seattle, from Texas that had come in, um, with all sorts of psychosis of all sorts of issues. Um, and people get really, yeah, we would have great, we would have great sessions and all that stuff. So it was a, it was a melting pot of problems at this spot. Yeah. You definitely meet a interesting group. Yeah. And it was kind of like, um, the first time I went to the outpatient thing and I was like, I don't belong here. These people are such fucking, what am I doing? Yes. Like, this is ridiculous. Um, but when I got serious and it was on me, not someone telling me I had to go, but me making the decision, my $2,000. So I think that's all I had to pay. I mean, I act like I said, but this is a really important part for you. Cause this is where just for some reason you were like, this is it. It was like a perfect fit. Right. So my, so it, and I, when I think back on it, my, my life of important situations or decisions seems to be predicated upon that quote unquote flip of the switch. Right. Um, I, I don't know why I woke up that morning and called the recruiter. Right. Um, and I don't know why I just all of a sudden made the decision to get better and just get better though. You, you said you were going to tackle it like with perfection. Like you were right. I had to serious. Well, I had to, because, um, if we're playing my tape through my tape was ending in death. There was nowhere else that I was going. Tell me what you say about rock bottoms. Uh, there is no rock bottom. Um, I don't care how low you go. Um, there's a trap door can always go lower. Your rock bottom is you're dead. That's literally the only time you can't go any lower. So I don't believe in rock bottom. That's kind of how I think about it. The elevator always goes lower. Yeah. It's always a trap door you can fall into. So don't ever think you can't. Um, so yeah, so I made the decision for me. No one told me to. Um, I'm, my wife made it clear under unknown on certain terms. I needed to do something. And when was the, just, I don't, I want to be clear, but there was a point where she found alcohol that you were hiding in your car. Is this like way before or way after? Uh, this was after. After. So she found the alcohol in my car, uh, during or post, uh, outpatient. Okay. When I wasn't supposed to be drinking. When you weren't supposed to be drinking. And I still was. And it was that summer of 2023 when we went to, um, went to the beach and that, and then we came home from the beach. That's when she found a whole bunch of wine and shit in, in, hidden in my truck. Um, and then I was on, like, like when we say like, it's hard to hide drinking, like it's another job. It's work. I was, I was in full blown, like hide drinks and take the trash out at a certain time and timing. Were you drinking a lot down in that basement? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I, I would hide a little bottles of wine and stuff in, um, it's so stupid now, but in places that was so stupid, like the pockets of my jackets that were hanging downstairs. Cause why would she ever look in my jacket? Um, all those things, but I would also like, I would also like hide it like way at the bottom of the trash. And then, and then, um, so like at that point, you know, like you're pretty fucked, right? Like if you're hiding your shit. Yeah. If you, yeah. If you're hiding it, there's. Yeah. How, I mean, what else were you doing that was hard? Like, like you were hiding all of this to pretty much everyone except your wife. Yeah. I mean, I knew that you had the incident when you fell at work, but I also remembered it wasn't a hundred percent time. I mean, I remember you telling me very clearly you only had three drinks, which I'm just like, I know that's what everyone says, right? Well, I've also though been drunk like thousands of times and that's never happened to me. That's why I'm on your side of it. Yeah. That's never really happened to me either. Yeah. Well, I'm just saying like, so. But yeah, no, I was, I was, I was doing the flight of the bumblebee around my house, hiding things. And then I, sometimes I wouldn't remember where I hid things. And then I would have to go look for my things to see if I have stuff hidden there to make sure she didn't come behind me to find them. And I remember one time she, I went downstairs, um, I don't know what I was doing, but down the washer and dryer downstairs, there was a little bottle of moonshine, a little thing of wine, uh, like just these little bottles of things that she had found. I don't know where she found them. Oh, they were empty. I had hidden empties somewhere and she found them. And to her credit, she just put them up there just to say, look, motherfucker, I know exactly what you're doing. And, uh, I mean, we think they're kind of stupid, right? Yeah. You always think you're smarter and you're, you're getting away with it and you're not. I mean, it's like, it's like when I used to go to the doctors and they would say, you know, why is your liver? Why are your Billy Rubens at 14, 15 when they're supposed to be two? Um, I don't know, I'm not really drinking, but there's only one way that number goes up and it's through alcohol. Like they know better. Everyone usually knows better than you do. So one thing I want to talk about, cause I think it's pretty important, uh, topic and sobriety is selfishness. And like, what does that mean when you say I have to be selfish and why, why are you selfish? Um, so just help people understand what that means. So part of my whole thing, um, in getting, getting, um, hate the word sober, like I'm working on my sobriety. I know. Part of my not drinking is the, the biggest reason I want to not drink is because I need to be happy and healthy, right? I've said that to you before, happy and healthy. Uh, that's like, like whenever, whenever, when people say, why did you quit drinking? Why I need to be happy and healthy? It's quick, right? Quick answer. Why were you drinking? Well, I don't know, but I know why I wanted to stop. And it was to be happy and healthy. And, um, and you mentioned, you know, your family life. Cause that's probably the first thing people fuck up when they're drinking like that is your buns around you. And so I needed to, um, um, my whole thing was, um, my whole thing was, I turned my life into, I only want to be there for my family, my family, meaning Kathy and Sammy. I need, I need to be happy and healthy so they can be happy and healthy. Um, and I can't be happy if I'm not healthy. The only way to get healthy, because I was, I got some shit wrong with me and a lot of it was a result of alcohol and, and some isn't some, you know, lucky genetics, but, uh, that they are my main focus. And in order to make them my main focus and to work on myself, I have to be selfish. It has to be all about me. And that's a good example of that. Um, a good example is, um, you know, like if I get invited somewhere, I was going to say holiday dinner, holiday dinners, uh, birthday parties, uh, anything that I would You can kind of look like the asshole for not going. Yeah, absolutely. But here's the thing. I'm okay with being the asshole and I don't care. I care as far as I don't want you to think I'm an asshole, but if you do, I'm sorry. It is all about me right now. I can't stray. I can't deviate. Um, I've created a world, a bubble for myself that works. Um, I get up early. I go to work early. I work hard. Um, I come home, uh, you know, we have our routine with dinner, family feud, play some fucking Uno. Uh, you know, Sammy loves Uno. Yeah. Uno, Uno, Uno, and Steve Harvey. Uh, and that's what we do. And, and I enjoy it and I don't need to do anything else. Um, so it's selfish in that, yes, I'm going to miss a lot of things. Um, and that stinks and it doesn't mean I don't care. It doesn't mean I'm not happy and I don't want to celebrate, um, holidays or achievements for people. But if I deviate from my path, I don't know how that ends. I'm still so early that the possibilities, it still scares me because I don't know. Um, I know for a fact, if I were to go to fucking Christmas dinner or whatever, a graduation party. You know, you're not going to drink. I know I'm not going to drink, right? And it's, it's not an event where you're like, like, but I know I'm going to be uncomfortable. I know that could make other people uncomfortable. So I don't want to do that. I don't want to be uncomfortable for myself. And I also don't know where that will lead. I know I will be thinking about it the whole time. I will be thinking about drinking the entire time that I'm there, wherever it is. I know I wouldn't be thinking about drinking if I'm at home in my bubble. Um, so it worries me what just thinking about it can lead to, um, because I don't know, because I haven't put myself in that situation. And, you know, I think for now it kind of goes hand in hand. I haven't put myself in that situation and I haven't had a setback. So I'm going to keep doing what's working for me until otherwise. Yeah. Um, and, you know, further to that point is, um, you know, I don't know, I don't know if I'll ever drink again. Uh, I know it won't be today and that's about all I can offer and, um, taking any chance in upsetting that or making that not come to fruition, me not drinking. I can't take that risk no matter who it upsets. Sorry. I can't that. And that's, that's where the selfishness comes in. And, um, you know, Kathy and I don't talk about this stuff much, but we are, and she is my 100% biggest proponent of don't do anything you don't want to do. Don't do anything that you don't want to do. Don't do anything. Don't do anything that's going to make you unhappy. Don't feel like you have to do things for other people. You should be doing things for yourself. That she's saying that she a hundred percent believes that. And, and I appreciate that. Um, because I know she understands it and I know other people don't understand it. And that's the thing I have to remember that falls back on me. It's not my job to make people understand what I'm going through. Um, they can do that on their own. Right. Um, but it is my job to realize they don't know what I'm going through. And as much as they may offer support and congratulations, um, you know, someone once said to me, Oh my God, you did it. Congratulations. You beat alcohol. Bullshit. I didn't beat anything because I still think about it every day. Um, so while I am proud of myself, um, I will hit three years in October. I am, you're 10 years, you're, you're 10 years in your 10 years sober, right? Yeah. And I was just probably a little more. Like I went to a concert this weekend. Everyone was wasted. Yeah. Um, I think the only thing that was different for me is I was sitting down a little more than normal. I mean, you know, I'm still not a great dancer sober. That didn't change. Cause I quit drinking. Well, your clothes stayed on. Yes. My, my clothes stayed on. That's a plus we're moving in the right direction. Um, so yeah, I have to, I have to stay in my bubble. I have to be selfish. I don't know for how long. Um, I hope people understand that again, if you don't, you probably could fucking read a book. You can learn all about what I'm going through. I, I'm not going to sit down and, and have a, uh, I don't want to have 20 different conversations with people explaining where I'm at. Um, it's my thing. Um, I, a lot of people would argue I didn't do it to myself. I will argue. I did do it to myself just by making bad choices. Um, and now you, you know, you get into the whole, is it a disease? Is it not a disease? I was just going to think, do you really think it's just bad choices or I know. I, I, in my case, and again, I want to preface this by saying, this is me, this is my jam and mine only. This, I am not any sort of, um, you know, laid out scenario where this is for everybody. Um, I think for me, um, I chose to abuse alcohol on a almost inhuman level for a very long time to where, because of the choices I made, my body began to depend on it and need it. Um, did you actually have like physical things happen if you weren't drinking? Sure. Yeah. Um, I, I would have, uh, shakes. Um, I would get nauseous, sweat. Um, and, and, you know, this might be where I first realized that it really was a problem. I, I came to realize a shot or two of vodka, I can knock this out in 10 seconds. They can, the symptoms can go away. Um, and that's not, uh, that's not, that's, that's, that's, that's ungood. Is the bubble isolating? Certainly. Um, but isolating within, uh, my family. I just mean, do you feel like socially, I want to, I don't want to say disadvantaged. That's not the right word, but you don't, you don't have any, your social outlets that you used to have. Are you going to say FOMO? Are you going to FOMO me right now? No, I was actually not going to FOMO you. I do not feel like I am missing out on anything. Um, no, see, here's the thing. I'm perfectly fine with it. I am a hundred percent fine with just, just being with myself, by myself. Um, I, I don't know. I mean, I certainly enjoyed to a very high level, the social aspect of, of going out and drinking. And, um, but the problem was, you know, Hey, let's go grab a beer after work. Never ended at a beer after work. Right. Um, look who you're talking to. Yeah, I know. But my point was, um, so you're at a decade or over a decade. I, I, I'm almost three years. Um, so three years in October. I just want to say that because that's awesome. Three years in October. Okay. And that's a huge step, but I, I am, I am a fetus. I am still in utero compared to where you are. Um, so kudos to you. Um, but I can tell you this, I don't miss it that much. I, I, I miss it every now and then a lot. Um, I think about it all the time. I am perfectly fine with, uh, not drinking. Um, I feel better. I think clearer. Um, I don't know. Remember how we were talking about that era of superiority with sobriety? Yeah. It's almost last weekend when I went up there and there's like, I was at the bar and I'm like, I think the poppy, you know, the new sodas, they're so good by the way. And I was like, okay, I just paid $8, but I was walking around proud of it. You know? Yeah. It's kind of cool to say, no, I don't drink. Let me just get a water, man. Um, it is kind of, maybe because it's different. I don't know. Um, but yeah, it, and it's not, it's not embarrassing. I'm not embarrassed by it. Um, I think in the beginning I would have been, maybe that's why I started to not, I mean, kind of pull away a little bit, but, um, I'm just at a place right now where I, I know that I'm the happiest that I've been in a super long time. Um, and I don't want to fuck with that. So I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing and see where it goes. Um, what would you say to someone that's like still in that crazy daily drinking, hiding chaos that you didn't really like believe or know before you quit drinking? Well, I mean, I could say a lot of things, but you, you can't, I don't want to say you can't. I don't want to, I don't want to paint anyone with a broad brush. Um, but I, I think it's true. Like you're, nothing is going to change, um, unless you decide that's what you want to do. You can't do it for anybody else. Um, you can't do it to please people. Um, I believe it was Rocky Balboa who once said, if you want to change big things, you got to make big changes. Way to quote him. Get it in. So, um, I think that was in Creed too. I thought it would have been Tom Cruise quote. Um, but, uh, one, you have to realize that it's an issue. Normal people don't go around hiding shit in their house, nor do they have to. Um, but you have to realize. I drove my trash to a CVS dumpster. Like I get it. I do crazy things. Normal people don't do these things. So, um, before we close the show, I want to kind of dig into one topic because it's a big piece of your story and the depression and the anxiety, um, that got to a point where you were thinking about doing some things. Can you walk the audience through how you were feeling and what you were thinking about doing at that time? Sure. So, um, at the end of all this, the point is going to be that I had seriously considered killing myself. Um, I was going to commit suicide, whether it was, um, a, a conscious decision that I was, boom, I was going to do it, or I was subconsciously going to do it just by drinking. It was going to kill me anyway. But, but so I, I, so I learned a lot of techniques, um, with all the different therapies that I've been to. Um, and one of them was, was journaling and I don't, I don't journal just because I consider myself an adult male. And, um, but I did start to, when I got really, really depressed, like I said before, you know, it was just, I literally just like woke up one day and I was like, fuck, like I'm depressed as shit. And I didn't know why. And so I just started writing stuff down because I was so depressed and so anxious. And so I just started, uh, this document, I literally just called it depression and anxiety. I'm not going to read the whole thing. It's probably like 30 pages and I'll be a hundred percent honest. Um, I haven't read it except this first paragraph since I wrote it. Oh, wow. You have, I think you've even read it twice. I, I couldn't tell you what it says. I mean, I could guess, um, but outside of this first paragraph. And I think this first paragraph really sums up where I was that whole time. Um, and so I, I started, I'm not saying I made up these words, but I found things that brought me to this. Um, and I, and I just started putting stuff down on paper. It's probably 30 pages long. Okay. I don't know. I don't even know a lot of it, but so, uh, so the first paragraph is, um, I don't want to die, but I don't care that much about living either. Having anxiety and depression is like being scared and tired at the same time all the time. It's the fear of failure, but no urge to be productive. It's wanting friends, but hating to socialize. It's wanting to be alone, but not wanting to be lonely. It's caring about everything, then caring about nothing. It's feeling everything at once, then feeling paralyzingly numb. The problem with depression is that, you know, you're depressed. You know, there is something wrong with you, but you also know that you can't do anything about it, no matter how hard you try, no matter how many masks you put on. And so whenever, uh, something would hit me, uh, I would just, I would just write it down. I would just add to this document and it went on. And that was the height of my, um, depression and anxiety. Um, I don't know where it, I don't know how dark it gets after that. I don't really want to read it. I have no inclination to read it. Um, I just know that, um, I didn't want to be here anymore. Um, and you know, I've said it before and I stand by this. If I owned a gun or had access to a gun, I probably would have done it. Um, and, um, obviously I'm glad that I didn't. Uh, but that's, that's where I was and that's a pretty shitty place to be. Um, and how, like how far along were you in planning? Does that, is that such a question or like? So there wasn't a plan. There was, I, I'm going to do this. If, if things stayed this way, I have to, uh, cause it's something, nothing has got to be better than this to find this. I don't even know what this means. It's just everything, right. It was in my head. And, um, so yeah. And then, so I made the decision, um, to, to, to change it and I got on medication. Um, I did get diagnosed with depression and anxiety at admission for Michael. Um, so I take a pretty substantial dose of Lexapro, um, maybe a little more on some days, but, uh, but that certainly helped. But also, I mean, more than anything, not drinking has helped. And now I'm at a place where, um, I have the job that I love, uh, great team that I work with. It's 12 miles from my house. Um, you know, I have, my family life is going great. It's like right now, like back then, so I was thinking about this golfers. I don't know, I don't know if Mike golfs, but like golfers, golfers typically say, I can't ever put a complete round together. I can't ever put a complete hole together. I may be driving the ball well, but I'm not chipping well, maybe chipping well, but I'm not putting well. You can never put that perfect hole together. Okay. And that was kind of like, uh, like how my life was. There was always something wrong. Never was everything. All right. All right. And right now is about as close as I am to playing the perfect hole. That's awesome. Um, that's like the best. Yay. I love that. That's the best way that I can describe it. Like there was always something wrong, always something negative, always something bothering me. And now it's hard pressed to find, um, anything that's wrong. So that's where I am. Thank you for sharing that. No worries. Um, it's a personal story and I just know there's so many people that are dealing with both issues. Um, I want to say like 60% of people with mental health issues are alcoholics. Um, and so that makes sense. Um, so we're going to close, um, any kind of final parting words. Um, thank you so much for being the guest today. It's been so fun. Thank you for having me. Um, no, no parting words, just, um, there's help out there. If you want it, you have to want it. Um, you know, just, uh, find your health and happiness. It's important. All right. Well, thank you, brother-in-law. Um, and so the book is also coming out in July and you can also go to the website, which is V D T P T.com. I still, I still don't know it. Um, just kidding. So come sign up and follow along. Thank you for joining the conversation.