Am I an alcoholic? The mental gymnastics

Welcome to Virgins Don't Take Pregnancy Tests, where real conversations meet hard truths with Angie and Dave. Today, what I want to do is have a conversation, kind of aligned with the book, as far as chapter one, um, but two important topics that, um, I'd love to get your input on how you felt, but really who the book is for, which I'll talk about, and then two, really that conversation with yourself as far as, like, am I an alcoholic, um, what, what that process is like. And so, I wanted to talk about that, but first, just from who the book is for, it is now out on Amazon in Barnes Noble. Um, the book is really for, I'd say, functional or problem drinkers that are alcoholics, but maybe, uh, their life is not in total ruins. I want to be clear that if you are having, like, physical withdrawals, um, this is not the place for you. Um, you should seek help and get, um, you know, go to an ER, um, or detox if you're doing that kind of stuff. Um, this, again, is really more for functional, um, alcoholics and problem drinkers. So, um, I, I guess from just the beginning, Dave, like, like, I think back and I think I knew I was an alcoholic as far back as my, like, thirties, mid-thirties. Well, what was that process like for you? Like, when did you know that you, you really had a serious problem? So, I had been drinking, I, I drank until I, I just stopped in, uh, in, uh, October of 2023. I literally drank every day for 30 years, right? Except for, um, three months off when we were able to camp and other stints of training campers. So, I probably should have known it a lot sooner than I did. Um, probably the first time that I realized that, like, this, seriously, this is a problem. Um, when I would first, well, first of all, when I started drinking the Mormons, right, which was probably the first sign. I probably should have known it then, but I was still functioning. I was still working out. I was still going to work. I was still on time. I was still doing my job. I was not getting DUIs. I was not getting any car accidents. I was literally the functioning alcoholic. So, you didn't have a lot of consequences? No, not, not at first. Um, so, so then, you know, further down, um, after a lot of things that, that, that had happened, um, I realized, when it started to get physical, um, so I, I drank so much to the point where I felt like me subconsciously, I didn't need it, but my body did. And when my body realized that, sure, so when it became physical and my body started telling me through tremors, shakes, sweating, nausea, um, that was a real idol for me. And so to the point of when did I actually know I was an alcoholic and had a serious problem was when I realized that two quick shots of vodka would make those go away and I'd be good to go for a few hours. And if I'm just thinking in terms of like during the day or at work or, or just trying to function during the day, I could go out, I can hit a bar that, that opens at 11 o'clock. I can have two quick shots of vodka because, you know, no one smells vodka, right? That's the theory. Um, and I could make those go away for the rest of the day until I can get home and finish what I had started that morning. Right, right. Um, so that's, that's when I was like, that's, um, that's not good. And that was just... And then how long until you actually quit? Uh, it was a while, it was a while I was hiding it and doing the, the whole shots of vodka or, or, um, just, you know, sneaking drinks, uh, going out and buying, you know, small bottles of wine, small bottles of moonshine, um, that I would hide around the house. And, and, you know, when, when my wife would go upstairs or get a shower or go out somewhere, I would run around real quick, bottle here, sip here, sip there. And I'd be cool. She had no idea. Um, and so I went on hiding for a very long time. And clearly, I mean, you don't have to be a Subway sandwich artist to know, like, that's bad. Yeah. That's not good. So when I knew I could stop the physical, um, symptoms of not having alcohol in my body just with two shots of vodka, and that would get me through until the time when I could go hard, then, then that's when I knew. I mean, I can't pick a date. Um, it was several years ago. If I ballparked, I'd put it in 2020, 2021, kind of piggyback right there around COVID. I think a lot of people drank a lot during COVID. Um, it's not an excuse at all. I mean, I was drinking way before COVID. Um, but yeah, so if I were to nail it down, it'd be when I realized two shots of vodka would stop my physical, simply not having alcohol. So, like, along those lines, um... Is that what it was the same for you? I assumed you had physical... I didn't have as many physical symptoms. Well, I felt like I wanted to just throw them all over the place. Um, but I also was just kind of drinking almost 24 hours. So you never gave me a chance. I just... I was not having physical symptoms, like, when I was in Tampa and all of that. I mean, besides, like, the sweats and anxiety and anxiousness, I wasn't having anything severe happening, which is why I think I kept doing it for so long because I'm 55, not to date myself, but I remember thinking about me being an alcoholic in my early 30s. Really? Like, it was kind of there and I just wasn't looking at it. Like, I would just push it away. Yeah. And so, a normal person in their 30s, that's enough to get them to stop. Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, but we are far from more. So, this is what I wanted to read and introduce a concept to everyone because it explains it really well. When alcoholics are going through that process of, like, am I an alcoholic? Can I modify my drinking? What can I do to still drink? That whole, like, process, um, they call it mental gymnastics. And that's a really great definition because it's exactly what it is. And I'll just read this to you guys. If mental gymnastics with alcohol means the exhausting, complete rationalization and excuses people use to justify their drinking, hide consumption, or convince themselves they do not have a problem. It is the constant internal debate and negotiation over when, why, and how much a person drinks. To me, that's fucking it. That control. Like, your mind is the problem. You rationalize the shit out of it. I mean, you just, I went through the whole thing. Like, I, like I said before, I was never late for it. I've never been late for it. Um, my work was not effective. I was still working out. I mean, everything, all these things that I was doing was just excuses. Well, yeah, I'm still doing those things, but I'm also pounding seven bourbon diets. Right. And the two just, they don't go together. Yeah. Um, and I, I think you, you think that as long as you're going about life and you can at least get by and survive and no one's, no one's really bringing it up to you. No one's noticing. No one's noticing that you think you, you got it covered. You, you think, um, you know, that it's not a problem, but so yeah, I definitely, because I would have to let it, um, I mean, I would, I never, I didn't drink at work for, you know, forever. Like, I, I was sober at work, um, but when it started, when I started drinking in the morning, um, and then it got to be like noontime and I had to just stop the shaking and nauseating and sweating and two shots of vodka. And do it. Um, yeah, I would go out like I was going to the ATM and I would just hit up, hit up, there's a restaurant in the air and two shots of vodka real quick and, um, it would fix it. And that's what I knew. Yeah, I, I was definitely drinking in the mornings and I was kind of drinking during work, during the days. And you worked from home. And I worked from home. I was working from home. Goddamn. There, there, there, there were, there were, yeah, it was in a great situation. Um, so like. There wouldn't be enough recycling in Woodbridge to handle that shit. Um, so like when people think about like what is an alcoholic, like I was trying to think about this on the way over here. It's, it's not always quantity, right? No, 100%. But it's things like if you're drinking in the morning, that's a red flag. Um, however, I think some of the other things are not as easy to identify because they're happening psychologically. And so part of that mental gymnastics that I want people to understand, even before getting to quitting, was trying to find a way to still drink that wouldn't cause problems. Meaning, if I was getting wasted on vodka, I wouldn't drink hard liquor anymore. It would just be wine. And then I went from red wine to white wine. And then wine was a problem. So then it was only drinking beer. And then just like it is on and on and on. I think anyone who's in, is in, or was in, um, any situation close to ours went through the home. Um, at some sort of facet of, okay, I won't drink hard liquor, I'll just drink beer. Um, or, you know, maybe I won't drink brown liquor, I'll just drink beer. Oh yeah. Or, um, I won't drink, uh, like this is any better. I won't drink until it's 10 o'clock. I'm not going to have to drink at seven. Same, same. Um, and then, you know, and then you start when you're, when you're, at least for me, I'd be downstairs. And my whole thing I would do downstairs is start just drinking bourbon diets. My bourbon diets. Bourbon and ice cube. Splash of Diet Coke, right? Um, and I would, I would start watching TV shows and just pounding bourbon diets and I would start to rationalize my head. If I have one drink, I can watch a half hour of this show. I can do a drink in half an hour and the show will be over. But then, like, I can do one more show because I'll just have one more drink. Then it's, it's 11 o'clock. So it was a drink per show. Yeah, basically, but you just start to rationalize, you start doing the clock, right? If I fall asleep at this time, if I have one more drink, I can still get to bed at this time and still get this many hours of sleep. And it's, like, shit like that. Like, that's the mental message. Think how hard work that is. Yeah, to figure that all out. It's, like, doing math and shit. No one wants to be just drinking bourbon and doing math. That's ridiculous. I think, um, one of the times that I really was like, you are such an alcoholic. I remember was, I was, like, in my, I think it was the year I turned 40 when everything kind of, like. You can remember that? Yeah. Um, the year I turned 40 and, um, my husband had moved out. So I was home alone with the girls and I was drinking. And I got pretty drunk evidently, but I was going to go outside for some reason. And I had, like, a kitchen door and I went to open it. And whatever I did, it just slammed back. I have a huge scar. I mean, nobody would really know. But I cut my lip just from being wasted and opening a door. And I was like, it just, that moment for me was just like, what the fuck are you doing? We've all had those moments. But, like, it's scar. Where blood is involved. Yeah. I mean, I, we, we were leaving a cop that was really short. We were leaving. I used to go to my sister's for a, um, it's called the hunt for horse races. We never saw a fucking horse. Yeah. I got hammered on a new bale all day. Um, and we, we were getting hammered. And I, of course, I was driving my truck and we were leaving there and, um, a bunch of kids jumped in the back of my truck bed. I didn't know what they were or whatever. But cops on our way out saw that. You know, well, you can't be doing that. Um, I don't know what you can't do. And we, and I got pulled over and the question was, you know, what are these kids doing? I was, I don't know those guys. They keep up and left. And so they asked for all my paperwork and stuff. And I have about six people in my truck. And, um, you know, we were having hoagies and shit all day. We, and my sister used to work for Cutco selling those knives. Yeah. Right. The sharp motherfuckers. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I reached in the glove compartment to get my shit. I didn't realize there was a knife in there. And I start going through all my paperwork and blood's flying everywhere. I didn't even know I was cut. I was so hammered. Plus the knives are sharp. Oh, jeez. Blood's going everywhere. And the guy was like, man, just go, just get out of here. Like he didn't even want to deal with it because he was going to have to write the courts, call an ambulance, I probably needed stitches. Oh my God. So, I mean, we've all had those moments, right? With the blood's involved. And it's, it, you know, that probably wouldn't have happened to me if I wasn't there. So that's kind of one of the things that I started measuring a little bit and using to justify it and then realizing. So, I would always just think and I could answer like, no, something bad didn't happen every time I drink. But when I drink or, but when bad things happen, I was drinking. And that's like, period. Like it's such a statement. Yeah. It's like, you know, nothing good happens every two a.m. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's crazy to look back on. And, you know, you, I can't imagine because I'm only about three years sober, not COVID, you're 10 years. And I just, I can't even imagine. So that's just the shit. I mean, we've been talking for 15 minutes and just told a few stories that, again, normal people don't tell. Yeah. They don't have that story to tell. Um, yeah, I was just thinking about that same night, um, was when I was having troubles with my husband and he was moved out and, um, because I was so drunk, I didn't answer his phone calls because I was drinking and I had like three voicemails from him the day before he died. Um, and we're going to talk about that in the next episode. I'm going to walk you guys through a little bit of my story specifically about my husband's addiction and his death, um, from a drug overdose. So we'll talk about that. Um, I think like kind of tying it to my husband, I think it was also easy for me to say or see that I didn't have a problem because I wasn't doing drugs like him. Right. I wasn't doing cocaine. I wasn't going out to obviously strip club or whatever was going on, all that bad stuff. You have been to a strip club. So have you. You have been to a strip club. Okay. We went in Atlanta and it wasn't seedy. And it actually, I think it was called the Pink Pony Club. Shout out to Chappelle Rowan or whatever her name is. Chappelle Rowan. Good times. Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's, yeah. Well, at least I'm not doing that. Right. I'm drinking bourbon. I could, I could be out sore. Well, I did that for my whole marriage. I, my whole marriage, my drinking was always like secondary. Like he would be like, you have a happy hour problem. I, if I relapse, I die. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. But it wasn't true because I had more than a happy hour. Yeah. But then you're getting into like, who's the worst addict? Well, yeah. No one wins. No one wins. Um, but they're also not showing commercials for cocaine on TV, right? It's a little harder. Yeah. I'm not going to say harder because I've never been, but, um, when they're pushing this shit on you all the time, um, it's, uh, it's different. I think it's, I don't know anything about drugs. I really don't think, but I, I imagine it's just as hard, but when you, I don't see cocaine everywhere. I see alcohol everywhere. So the alcohol, one thing I do want to maybe talk about, cause you brought it up is trying to get sober in a drinking world. And I mean that with such sincerity, there is alcohol. When you realize you have a problem and that you need to stop, it's so overwhelming because alcohol is everywhere, not just physically at bars and restaurants, but social events, birthday parties, going bowling, like everything is tied to alcohol. Um, so that is just, I mean, obviously that's a huge difference than a drug addiction, which is more illicit drugs. But, um, I always like thought that was the problem. Sure. Okay. So one of the things that we've talked about, and I think is one of the questions I get a lot is people don't understand the link to which alcoholics go to keep drinking. Um, and I always said, like, I, the reason I didn't quit drinking for so long is because that was like my biggest fear. So what had to happen was something became scarier than quitting drinking. And for me, that was losing my kids. But through that entire time, hiding it from work, uh, family, uh, friends, um, I had situations where I was not hiding it very well. I actually got caught on, not caught. I mean, literally I was drunk on a client call and my boss was like, you don't sound good. Maybe you should get off, kind of, um, that's, that's not hiding it. So things like that were starting to happen. Um, I also was hiding like the quantity I was drinking in particular with wine. Um, I would do things where I wouldn't want to throw out my wine bottles because there were so many, because I was drinking at least two bottles a month, at least, um, there were so many empty bottles and my husband was out of town and I didn't want the garbage men to see it. I would literally every other day go take trash two miles away. I would drive to CVS and go in their dumpster and throw it away. That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. Do you have any examples of like when you were not like, not, not like that, because I, um, I wasn't that, that, um, that smart about it. I, I went as far as I would just drink little bottles of wine or little bottles of moonshot. Um, and my, my grand plan was to just shove them really far down in the trash can. Yeah. Cause no one's going to go digging through the trash, right? Till they do. And then you go downstairs and you find all your empties lined up on the washer and dryer in the basement. Is that what that happened? Yeah. Kathy, I would, I would hide stuff after I, whether I was hiding full to go back to later or empties to not find, uh, after the fact, um, I would hide them, uh, in jacket pockets hanging downstairs. Um, I, I would find like ridiculous spots. I would find spots where I wouldn't even forget where I hid. And so, but I thought I was, I was getting away with it. And then, but one night I went downstairs. I don't know if I was going down to get a drink or whatever I was doing, but I went downstairs and lined up on the, uh, washer and dryer. I don't know what it was. An empty of moonshine. An empty of wine. Um, a couple of airplane bottles with a little bird with her. Vodka with her, you know. She didn't say anything. She's like, I got you, motherfucker. I see exactly what you're doing. And then I was like, shit. So she said nothing. She didn't say anything. Nope. Just left them there. And, uh, and so then I, I don't know if maybe that was when I decided maybe my truck would be a better place to start. And that's when you get caught with your. Yeah. And then I, and then I got, and then I got caught with, uh, with hiding them in my truck. And so I would go so far as I would know that I had stuff hidden in my truck. And then when she would go up to shower or if I knew she was going to be upstairs on the phone for a little bit, I would literally run outside to my truck. Look like, so the neighbors, right. If they could see me, look like I'm fucking doing something, right. Like, I need something out of my glove box. I'd be like, just put it back. And I'd run inside and just hope she hadn't come downstairs yet. And this was, this was before rings and shit like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't do that shit now. I don't know what I would do now. Thank God I don't have to. Um, but yeah, it's crazy shit like that you do to try to hide it. You have to start, you know, timing things. You gotta start finding good spots to hide things. Um, it's, it's a lot of work. It becomes like a, it's a job. It really is. And, and, you know, like any job, you want to be good at it. Right. So I can safely say that we were both very good at drinking. Very good at it. I, I, I got away with it for a very long time. Um. Well, like hiding it, don't you like, well, do you agree that by the end, you're not really hiding it at all. Let people know. You know what I mean? Well, I think, I think it becomes such an effort that it just, you just get so used to the effort. It's like anything else, you start to become nonchalant about it. And the further you get, and the further you get, you're like, oh, this probably isn't that big. Yeah. I probably don't have to hide it at the bottom of the trash can. I can just hide it in one of the zippers in the second pouch of my backpack because, you know, no one's going to go with my backpack and you just start, you just start getting lax at days full and thinking you got, you got your bases covered and, um, yeah, and you don't, but, you know, I will say that, uh, getting, getting caught like that. And even later on getting caught fucking big time, uh, finding, finding my truck, uh, not at the time, but looking back when it really helped me, um, to look at myself and to realize like, you, I mean, you got to get help. So it was that along with losing my job, along with my depression and anxiety, um, along with, you know, at one time seriously considering killing myself. And, and then, you know, you talk about losing, losing a girl. I was like, I was going to lose my family. I know. And at one point I didn't care because I didn't even care about losing myself. And then I started to not care about losing myself and I wanted to die because I thought nothing, uh, had to feel better than what I was feeling. And that's a whole other, maybe we'll get into that later, depression and anxiety. Yeah, we definitely won't talk about mental health. Because, uh, mental health is a thing. And I know when we were growing up, it wasn't, um. It's a very real situation for a lot of alcoholics. I don't know what the percentages are for dual diagnosis, but it's there. It's a big issue. Yeah, it's a definite thing. And I'm glad, like, it's a thing now. If you, you know, back to, you know, you see alcohol advertised on TV, you also see calmness apps and meditation apps and things like that for mental health awareness. So it is out there. And mental health is super important. You know, a lot of my drinking, I think, just talking about, you know, mental health was exactly my situation, um, because I'm bipolar, but I didn't know that or treat it, uh, for 35 years, 40 years. And so once I came. Yay, I'm happy, boo, I'm sad. Yay, I'm happy, boo, I'm sad. It, for me, was just a lot of mood swings, depression, anxiety. And then the thing that you think is helping you get rid of it is the alcohol, but it's really exacerbating it. And so I wholeheartedly believe you can't really get sober or quit drinking until you figure out that mental health story. No, you have to fix your head. You're not doing anything if you don't fix your head. You gotta do that or there's no point in trying to do anything because you're still going to fuck everything up. Mentally, you have to, you have to, you have to fix yourself in that way or else you're not prepared. You're just not prepared to change. Was anyone besides your wife telling you, like, your drinking is a problem? Was anyone else, like, saying anything to you? Yeah, when I started to, like, get in trouble at work and, you know. So they talked to you? They did talk to me. I worked with good friends of mine. Yeah, yeah, I remember. Good friends of mine that I worked with for years, 22 years I was there and I was friends with my boss for longer than that. So, yeah, there was a whole, there was, someone noticed this. And I think the conversation, the very first time it came up was, hey, we had a bunch of higher-ups were in town and said, hey, somebody mentioned that you walked by and they kind of smelled something. What? Really? A couple instances, like, instances like that happened. And then it was, let's go across the street, ironically, to the bar and have this conversation, like, that you maybe need, you at least need to acknowledge and recognize, like, you can't. Were you like, oh, shit at that point or were you just kind of like? I was, I think I was kind of like, yes, they're 100% right. That is stupid. I shouldn't be going. But then I was also at the stage where I'm still going to work. I'm still on time. I'm still working. So I understand it. That's fine. And I mean, clearly you won't afford enough to change your school. And then, you know, IOPs, on-patient programs. Thankfully, I only had to go to an inpatient, 30-day inpatient once. So far, I know you went three times. Thanks for... Well, I'm a loser. No, but it, so yeah, people started noticing. Besides Kathy, was your original question? Sure, and it was, um, I suppose it was kind of eye-opening, like, wow, I didn't realize that it was that noticeable. Also, I have to think that it made me work harder to, I can't just be walking around the building, you know, knowing that you have to, like, know your surroundings, right? Like, I knew there were, like, higher-ups in town and you can't do that. You can't have drinks and go walk around in the lobby of your building, like, you fucking idiot. Um, you gotta be smarter than that, so, like, I was getting, I got smarter, I didn't do that for a while. Um, but that's just, that just goes back to the point of, uh, that it's work, and, you know, when you start to slack off, you're not getting good at your job, you make improvements and get better at it. Yeah, and then you just, um, but eventually, it just caught up. I think it's really good to point out, and I know we said it, so we don't have to, like, keep saying it over and over again, but just how exhausting the whole process is. Like, it's just, you're so, they say, like, if you're an AA person, like, you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, but it is really that. Like, you're sick of being sick and tired from drinking, and you get to that point, and that's when I think you're able to make some decisions and make some changes in your life. Um, let's just talk about, a little bit more about the, you know, being sober in a drinking world, and our families, and our friends. So, like, everyone that I hang out with, and my family, maybe not everyone anymore, but drinking was always, like, a big part of it. And so, when you quit drinking, you're worried about losing those things, because you're not going to be able to relate to them, or join in and participate, and, um... Yeah, and that opens a whole other, um, rabbit hole of issues, uh, and it just comes back to anxiety and awkwardness. Um, it's, you can't be around it, I think, in your initial stages of trying to fix yourself. You have to remove yourself from it. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and in hindsight, I would have liked to have had that conversation with people, um, because I, I don't have friends that I used to have before, and that's fine. It's okay. Um, but it's, um, you don't want to stop being friends with people. You don't want to stop doing things. You don't want to stop going out. You don't want to not celebrate things. Um, you have to, on some level, because you have to be selfish. You have to, you have to worry about yourself first. You can't take care of anybody else. Um, and even now, uh, and it gets more awkward when people say, like, hey, come over. No one will drink. We won't even have any drinks. Oh, that's the worst. So, I'm the dickhead that's making you not have fun. I hate it. Or what you perceive would be fun. Like, I'm going to, I'm, I'm going to come feel awkward already, just so you can feel awkward, trying to not make me feel awkward. It makes zero sense. Oh, no, I hate that. So, I would rather just not go. And don't even invite me, really. Because I don't want to put you in that situation. I don't want to put myself in that situation. So, when I got caught drinking at work, and then I did end up going to my first kind of rehab, um, I went back to work after two months. And my CEO, uh, we had an off-site, and I think we were in San Fran for, like, three nights. And the first night at dinner, you know, it was my first time being sober at a work event. And the first night at dinner, some people had already ordered drinks. But when my CEO arrived, he had them remove every drink from the table for me. And I felt like, oh my god, everybody's going to be like, what the fuck, I want to have a drink. I know. But I felt so happy that he had done that. It's, A, good on him for recognizing the situation. But that had to be fucked up. Oh, no. If people were like, why are they, he didn't say why. But I knew why. And then anyone that knew why was in rehab knew why, I'm sure. Um, yeah, and I felt really that more, more awkward. Right, because I think it brings attention to it. Yeah. And, you know, like, in a similar... But the intention was so good. The intention was great. You know? And a similar situation happened to me, um, when, when I was, uh, grabbing a similar tie-in or whatever. Mm-hmm. And we went, uh, up to the conference room, big, you know, spread, whatever, no drinks. But we did, at the end, uh, there was a toast. And, um, they were handing out champagne. And another friend of mine that I worked with was all kind of friends. Um, she was kind of handing out the champagne. She, um, came to me and put my glass down. She said, that's sparkling cider. I was like, okay, thanks. Which told me that's great, because I don't have to now fake drinking or not toast. I would hold the glass. Like, I would always get one and hold it. But then it also, it just, just as quickly reminded me, like, or brought to my attention that she had to have a conversation with somebody who told her to do that. Oh, yeah. She should get really good. Yeah. And so, and that, so I guess that goes back to what people did realize and people knew. But yeah, I mean, it was a good idea. It was good on her. And it did, honestly, at the time, I remember, because I was still way early. I don't even think I had been to, to, to rehab yet. During that time, when it gets brought out, you get called out, like, they're not called out. Um, it just really made me know. So one thing I want to hit on, because you brought up, like, rehab and patient and outpatient. Um, how about, because I know both of us did this, hiding, drinking while you're in an outpatient program. Yeah. Because we did the exact same thing. I was, I was in a 30 or 60 day outpatient program. So it was just eight to five or whatever it was. And then I would go home and spend the night. They would do random testing. That was your outpatient? What? Your outpatient was from eight in the morning till five at night. And then you went home? Yeah. Something like that. Oh, so mine was, like, three times a week, but, like, from six to nine. Yeah. Or something like that. It was, like, three hours long. Yeah. No, there were some that were less. But the one I was dead at Fairfax Hospital, I was there, like, all the time. Um, and why was I... Might as well just slept there. Yeah, but the fact that I would know I could drink the day that I got a drug. An alcohol test and passed it. Then I knew, because I didn't have IOP, it wasn't every day. I want to say it was, like, three days. Then I knew which days I could drink and not get caught. And that's a whole nother level of, like, and you did that, too. Yeah, mine was, mine was, uh, Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Yeah. I think it was six to nine. Um, and you would know, we would have to piss every time we went in. And I know, so, and this was, um, I had to do this because of drinking. They said, listen, I'm going to talk to yourself. You have to go do this IOP. It wasn't my choice. Um, so I went and did it. And that, and that's a key, right? It's not, it wasn't my choice, right? So, I went and did it. And I think it was supposed to be two months or something like that. It ended up being, like, three and a half. It was IOP positive on this test. And, um, but it was, I would know on that, I think it was Monday, Tuesday, Thursday. Something like, there was a day in between. So, you... And I knew that that day, I had, like, 24 hours, and I would push that 24 hours. And that's how I felt, too. Yeah. And I, like, I would leave there, and on my way home, I would stop at the steakhouse, and I would have a shot of vodka and rest for a while. You just made me think of a night that, uh... So, my husband, in his drug addiction, went to several rehabs, um, but I just lost my dream. I was telling you about how much you care about my worst dream. Oh, I know what I was saying. We went to a family weekend rehab for my husband, and I remember it was me and his sister, Catherine, and we were both, like, huge alcoholics. She ended up getting sober, too, but we, at that time, were drinking. I remember they asked the family members, while we're going through this family weekend, we asked you not to drink any alcohol as well. Good luck with that. To support. And literally, we left the thing and went to a fucking bar every time, both nights. And then we bought wine and went home and drank it. And then I was hungover and parched, and, like, I'm at a rehab event, and I'm, like, hungover and shit. Um, that's just crazy. And it was, like, it didn't even occur to me that maybe that's a fucked up thing to do. Like, dream while you're partners in rehab. You know, something, like, maybe that's a shitty thing. I, I, I drank through many, many things that you thought I would drink. Like what? You know what comes to mind? I know exactly what comes to mind. You know what I mean? I know exactly what you're saying. I know you're thinking about, uh... I know you don't want to say it. It was at a church in the parking lot, uh, before a special occasion. By the way, not special for me, because I'm not religious. But I don't even want to be there to begin with. Right, right. Uh, so full disclosure, I, my daughter was getting baptized, and my dad, mom, and I were pretty much tailgating in baptism, uh, and, um, yeah, so that was one, uh... But there's, like, for me, there's so many things like that. I just can't even... Yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I, I'm sure when, uh, you know, my nieces and nephews, even when, I'm almost positive, when Sammy was born, I, I, I think we all, I think we had a cooler in the room, uh, and, yeah, it's just, you don't, uh, I couldn't even dream about the stuff in my name. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's, uh, it's great. So, one thing I want to kind of, like, go back to, and I don't know if we really, like, kind of answered it, but, like, what is, what does an alcoholic look like? Like, how do I know if I'm an alcoholic? And I'll kind of start with just a couple of thoughts. Like, you know, I already shared the one that, you know, every time something bad happened, I had been drinking. That was, that was for real. Um, I think, um, you know, the other thing that I want people to understand, um, is, it's, it's also just an unpredictable, when I drink, it was completely unpredictable whether I would drink and be okay or end up being blacked out drunk. Do you know what I mean? I didn't have the ability to, to make it predictable. Like, I just didn't know which way it was going to go by the end. Well, by the end, I knew which way it was going to go. But that, that is, you know, I don't know if people understand that. Um, so, I don't know that I was ever the, get blacked out. I'm the guy that's passed out at the party. Yeah, yeah. It's on my face. I don't, that's never happened to me. Or just maintain. I could maintain, um, but sadly, that also comes from years of experience, right? Um, but I think, listen, dude, I think it's easy for me to break down what makes you an alcoholic. And that is, uh, just mere number, just the number of drinks you're having a day. I see things like that, you know, it's normal for a, uh, a healthy female, uh, 35 to 45 to have, uh, two glasses of wine for me. And I see things like that and it just makes me laugh because if I were to write down, if I wrote down every day, how many drinks I had, it's insane. I was, I was on a inhuman level consuming alcohol and for me, it's that easy to just, that's not non-alcoholic, um, and I don't even like the word, I, it's like this whole, this whole thing of like, I'm working on my sober, I'm just trying to, so I'm living a sober, like all the, it all just carries such a negative connotation. It does, it does. Right? Because it's still like, I'm still a person. Yeah. Right? I'm not, I'm not like afflicted or. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I'm not like fucking Lazarus walking around here. Yeah. It, it, it just has such a negative thing. I, I just look at it as, listen, I was drinking way too much. I fucked up my life. I wanted to kill myself. I decided I didn't want to kill myself. And the only way to do that is to not get hammered every day. And the only way to not get hammered every day is to not have the first drink of the day. Yeah. Right? And, um, like I said before, I say this all the time. Um, I don't know. If I'm ever going to drink again. I don't know. Maybe I will. I don't know. It's not going to be today. I say that in my head too. I do know that. Yeah. Um, you know, maybe I will. Who knows? Right now I'm not. Yeah. And things seem to be going pretty fucking good. So I, I don't want to mess with that. Um, and I would recommend, uh, anyone who is, uh, flirting with, with trying to, uh, stop drinking, even cut down drinking, um, that you have to commit to it. You can't, you, I mean, you have to make a decision and you have to really want to stop to stop. Because it's hard work. Yeah. I think it's hard work. Hiding, drinking, trying, quitting, drinking. It's, it's, it's different work. It's, it's harder. Um, you, you, you have to commit to it. And I think, I don't know who said it. Um, I mean, cause we've talked about rock bottom. I don't believe that. Um, but like someone says, um, there is no cure for addiction. Um, the only thing that can help you is you just suffer. You just suffer long enough until you're just done. Sick and tired of being sick and tired. Yeah. And it's like, you gotta just make the decision. When you make the decision, you stick with it. Um, and listen, chances are, if you make a decision to stop drinking and you go a week, that's great. Chances are you're going to drink again soon. Yeah. Yeah. Very soon. Yeah. And that's fine. That happens. Right. You didn't fail. Right. You're just learning. And so you start again. If you went a week, let's try to go two weeks. Yeah. Um, and if you keep doing that and you realize physically, um, mentally, um, just how much better you feel, you start to get. And it takes a while. You start to get addicted to that, right? You start to get addicted to wanting to wake up feeling good. That becomes your, that becomes your, that becomes your, that becomes striving for, I cannot wait to see how good I'm going to feel tomorrow. So not only physically feeling good, but emotionally feeling good because you haven't gotten in a huge fight with your family member or, you know, started an argument or did something, drink at work, whatever it was. Yeah. Um, and listen there, I have, I experienced two, two really good feelings, uh, as a result of quitting drinking. And I probably experienced one more often than the other. At least once a day I pass a cop and I don't give a shit. I dare a cop to pull me over. Let's talk about that. Let me get to the second one first. Okay. Okay. Because the second one I think is more important, um, and it probably only happens every three months and I look forward to it is I don't have to lie to a doctor. Oh yeah. I don't have to lie to a doctor. I can go in there and I love checking the, you know how stoked I get to check the box that says, do you drink? I go, no. I just got my physical and he asked me and I was like, I'll drink. And then when your blood work comes back, great. Yeah. It's like, fucking that's why, that's why you do it. Now go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off. No, I was just going to say like. It's probably not the first time I've been there. Yeah, I know. So what were you saying? I was, I was thinking, um, you know, people, um, what were you saying again? Um, I was talking about, uh, the doctor not having to lie, the two, the two main things that I look forward to now, as opposed to dread. So that that's what it was. I wanted to just talk about that first thing that you said, which is getting pulled over by a cop. I dare them. I totally feel that way. It's like, you're so confident and almost arrogant. I don't drink. Pull me over. Do you want me to remind you of a funny story? Coming home from West Virginia. Exactly. When you were very early, I don't even know if this was your first, second, third stint of trying to quit drinking or whatever, but you were in it. I had it hundreds. You were in it. You were in your, I'm not drinking. And we spent a weekend or a day or two or whatever in West Virginia. And I, you know, obviously I was drinking. And you weren't. And I don't know, for whatever reason, we were driving home together. You drove home. Kathy left earlier for some reason. Probably because I was hammered. Maybe. And you, you suggested I bring a roadie. And I don't know what time we left. I know it was before noon. You're like, if you want to bring, if you want to bring a roadie, bring a roadie. And I'm like, I don't really want to. But I'm not. But I won't. And I don't think it was even because you weren't drinking. I just think I didn't feel comfortable. Yeah. Doing it. And then. And we got pulled over. We swear to shit, we got pulled over. I don't think we were in the car for 10 minutes. We were either going down 9 or 81. Wasn't it my, my register, or it was a sticker issue. There's no chance I would ever remember that. But we got pulled over. And the first thing we said, or you said, so glad you didn't bring that roadie. But yeah, that's, that's, that's the best feeling. Passing a cop. I don't care. I'm bad if you're going to give me a speeding ticket. Yeah. Give a shit. You're not going to give me a DUI. But it's just that feeling of like, I'm so not scared to get pulled over. And before, I was always in fear of getting pulled over. Oh, yeah. I mean, not that I was necessarily drinking and driving a lot, but I know that there were many times I had been drinking some. Yeah. And would be on the road, unfortunately. So, I don't know that I drunk, drove a lot. And when I say drunk, I mean drunk. Yeah, yeah. I had a hundred, thousand percent. Buzz. Way off the magnitude of BuzzDrink. Yeah, yeah. Or BuzzDrink. Yeah. And BuzzDrink. That, yeah. And I was just so lucky. I got pulled over once. Almost got a DUI. When I went, I got taken. I blew a level from 2-4. It was insane. That was like three hours after I stopped there. And I just happened to get a really good order. Really good day. Got a really good judge. Got probation before good. So, I never got a DUI. Never went on my record. Just, and I just looked cool. So, that. And then, I think more than once, being a Marine got me out of it. Because most of your cops are from a local area. Yeah. And being a Marine, at least twice that I can think of off the top of my head, literally just being a Marine, got me out of it. Whether it was switch drivers, or, I mean, one time, one time when I was home from the Marines and hanging out with my buddies, it was New Year's Eve. I literally, I, my girlfriend at the time, was supposed to drive. She passed out in the passenger seat. I'm driving. One in the morning on New Year's Eve. Oh, God. Everyone's drunk. Yeah. I'm the least drunk. And we get pulled over. I, small town in New Jersey. Yeah. I get pulled over. I didn't know the cop, but he, he asked where we were going. And I said, oh, we're going to this guy's house. And he goes, oh, all right, follow me. And because he saw I was wearing a Marine Corps, back when dudes used to wear necklaces, yeah, it had a Marine Corps emblem on it. And he said, you're a Marine? I said, yeah, I'm just going, you know, I'll leave, whatever. And I said, all right, follow me. I know where my kids live. So he put on the lights. And I followed him to the after party on New Year's Eve. And that's, yeah, at least three times I've dodged. I did get a DUI as well. And that's. No, not as well. I didn't get a DUI. You technically got it. No, I didn't. You didn't get found guilty. Probation before judgment. I never even got judged. Yeah. You're still. You know what I mean, though. I actually think that's another thing, like, that I truly believe. Like, non-alcoholics don't tend to buzz drive. Like, it wouldn't even cross their. No. And so if you're starting to get DUIs, or I know that's just another consequence, but that's a big thing, because alcoholics get DUIs. Not all of them, but 95%. There's one sentence that has never come out of my mouth in the history of my life. What? No thanks, I'm driving. Oh, yeah. I've never said that. Yeah. Yeah. Just three, I'm driving. Maybe I've said that. But, yeah. So, just to kind of wrap up, I hope, like, what we shared today gives people an idea of kind of what goes on behind the scenes of an alcoholic in their brain. And, you know, it's probably the same for every alcoholic. They're all going to have kind of that same mental gymnastics, if you will. But that's it for today. We're going to come back next week, and we're going to talk about something a little bit more serious, really, like, at what point my drinking just took off from already being a heavy drinker was when my husband died. And I'll talk about that in detail next week. Today, though, thanks again for coming. Check out our socials, which is on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Search VDTPT. The book is available on Amazon and Barnes Noble. And you'll find our podcast on Spotify and Apple Music. Do you have any? Amen.